Friday, September 12, 2008
LOF CH. 7-8
After reading the first act of Macbeth as well as the first eight chapters of Golding's Lord of the Flies, what do you see as the role of evil? Where have you seen connections in the emergence of evil in these two works of literature? Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today? Think deeply here people. Respond and connect with one anothers' ideas.
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The role of evil is represented in LOF with the Beast. The boys are growing more and more afraid of the imaginary monster, and at the same time, coming more under its grip. The "monster" is starting to take hold of the boys and control them. It stands for the evil that is slowly destroying the civilized boys.
Our world is also freaking out about things that may harm us, like global warming and exploding atoms. We are afraid that these may destroy us, but the real thing to be afraid about is the evil inside people.
In Macbeth, I believe that the role of evil is solely held by Lady Macbeth. I do not think Macbeth could be called evil, even if he does kill the king, because Lady Macbeth is channeling herself through him, and it's affecting him in a big way. It's almost as if he is the puppet and Lady Macbeth is the evil puppeteer. In Lord of the Flies, I think that Jack is the evil character. He may go hunting and get meat for the others, but he doesn't care if anyone lives. He has been crazed by this island, and only cares about doing what he feels like, and his followers have been blinded by his thoughts. Like Lady Macbeth, he is channeling his feelings through the others, and they automatically agree with him. They're either afraid to say differently, or they actually do think he is doing the right thing.
In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth's evil emerged after she'd read the letter and realized she could be queen if Duncan died. In Lord of the Flies, I think the evil starts to emerge after Jack sees "The Beast", and truly emerges after he sticks the pig's head on the wooden spear.
Today, there is evil in the government. People embezzle and cheat their way to a higher and more comfortable lifestyle, like how Lady Macbeth would like to kill Duncan to be queen. Also, in general, people will betray each other for silly reasons. Jack betrayed Ralph because Ralph was telling the children what would be best for them. Although there were pretty good suggestions, Jack betrayed Ralph, and left. Later, he returns to steal fire, deepening the betrayal.
Overall, Lady Macbeth and Jack are the more similar characters in the two books, Macbeth and Lord of the Flies. They're both the antagonist, and they both betray something to achieve a more appealing lifestyle. Finally, they can both be compared with "evil" deeds in the world today.
I believe the role of evil in both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth is the human need for power. In both pieces of literature people begin to use evil in order to gain power. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth uses evil to gain the powerful role of Queen and King for her and her husband. In Lord of the Flies both Ralph and Jack begin to fight and such to gain power as the leader over the other boys. In modern times, there is much talk of various politicians who turn to “evil acts” such as bribery or scandal in order to raise their political power and standing. It seems to be becoming more and more common for politicians to resort to such acts for money or better jobs.
I agree with what Tristan said about how the main characters that are resorting to evil are working through the others to get what they want. This completly reminds me of gangs. There is a group of people that do the bad deeds for the leader. They can't rise up against the leader bacause they will threaten or kill them. Fear and evil go hand in hand.
Once someone or a group of people let someone take power, they have to be cautious about the leader gaining to much control. The bottome line is people will do whatever it takes to get what they want, and once put in a powerful position, it will take a lot to stop them.
Just as a side note, I think that we as teens need to pay attention to what the news and talk shows say about politics and the world. We need to listem because soon we will be the ones that pick politicians that will lead us...
These two pieces of literature as different as they are, have some deep connections. In LOF we see the role of evil as the human desire to be dominate among other humans, and the paranoia of possibly losing that power. I believe that if a group of people are cut off from rules, regulations, and civilization the primitive instincts and savagery is almost inevitable to come out. People have always deliberated this law,like Anne Frank who said that despite everything and all the wickedness done to her, she believed people were still good.
In Macbeth the evil is the same, the greed to become the dominate figure. In Macbeth's case, all it takes for this to emerge is Lady Macbeth's evil influence to persuade a "good" man with some weaknesses to murder. These two works of literature both have a trait in common, human weakness and a deficiency to resist power.
This seems to be a common parallel between our world and these stories. Over the years wars like WWI and WW2 have been sparked by this lust for control. And similarly to LOF and Macbeth, the leaders who reached the pinnacle of power by deceit and murder almost always result in destruction i.e. Hitler, Hussein, Tojo
The role of evil in Macbeth and Lord of the Flies is represented by the people, as well as the Beast. In Macbeth, the Witches were not evil, but showed the evil inside of Macbeth, and also Lady Macbeth. Even though Macbeth could not be called evil at first, as Tristan said, but the impact of the Witch's prophecies greatened it's grip on him and soon turned him into a man personifying evil.
In Lord of the Flies, the Beast is evil, but not so much as evil as the kids, like the hunters and Jack. All they wanted was to see and feel the blood of others, for nothing but entertainment. As they acknowledged the Beasts existence, they grew worse, sacrificing so the Beast would not hurt them.
In technical terms, there is no such thing as evil. Evil is the lack of good, as darkness is the lack of light. The Beast is like the Witches in a way, not evil itself, but a character that puts emphasis on the evil inside, until that evil is all they see in the person.
The role of evil in Lord of the Flies is held by the beast. The boys know very little about the beast, so they have reason to be afraid of it. If they knew anything about it, they would be less afraid. It is human nature to be afraid of the unknown. Human nature is also to be afraid of the unusual. Think about small children trying new food. Even if it is good, they will be wary. In horror movies, the villin is usually so deranged that we don't understand him. With that he gets wierder. The best villins are impossibly wierd and hard to understand. The best representation of evil is much the same. A giant vine-snake? The boys know nothing about things like that, and would either dismiss it,or be terrified.
In LOF I think that the role of evil is played by the beast. I agree 100% with what robertc2012 said about how the beast is beginning to control their lives, “The boys are growing more and more afraid of the imaginary monster, and at the same time, coming more under its grip. The "monster" is starting to take hold of the boys and control them. It stands for the evil that is slowly destroying the civilized boys.” In Macbeth the role of evil is played by Lady Macbeth. And going off what tristinl said, Macbeth can’t be called evil because he killed the King, Lady Macbeth was channeling her evil through him and using him like a puppet for her own self gain.
Today people cheat and steal their way up in the ranks all the time. And after all the work they do to get there, half the time it’s not worth it because they are living in constant fear that someone is going to find out what they did. In accordance to LOF we live in constant fear of being destroyed by global warming, a nuclear war, or another world war that actually involves the entire planet and destroys us all in the end. Now I know that you’re now thinking wow what a pessimist, but hey, they called WW1 the war to end all wars, and look how well that went.
I think evil is extremely prevalent in both of these books. In Lord of the Flies, I think that "evil" cannot be pinned onto just one character. Although I think some of the most obvious characters would be Jack and the partly-imagined beast, all of the boys have the capability for evil, as see by Ralph in Chapter 7, pg. 115, where it says "Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of the brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering."
In Macbeth, however, I think that the evil is shared between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. Although Lady Macbeth did not start out as totally evil, her ambition has pushed her to a place where “Fair is foul and foul is fair”; where to her the only right thing to do is to kill Duncan, a previously unimaginable feat. Her ambition has also brought Macbeth down, like Tristan said, “...She is the evil puppeteer.”
Also, as a side note, can somone please help me here? I don't understand what it means in chapter 6, page 103, where it says, "However Simon thought of the beast, there rose before his inward sight the picture of a human at once heroic and sick"
Thanks
John
John, I agree with your saying that not just one character is the evil person in the story. One person may be more evil, but that evil may soon start to take over the other characters.
Simon has a vision in his head of a heroic and sick person when he hears of the beast because it's a reference to the dead parachuter on the hill. Simon, at this point, has not seen this yet. It's foreshadowing what he's about to find out.
The evil inside the boys in Lord of the Flies and the evil inside Macbeth and Lady Macbeth in the play Macbeth all have something in common. These characters allow the evil inside them to grasp their souls and consume them. The evil inside them makes them do things that they would never do. Civilized versus savageness is a connection in the two pieces of literature. The boys in Lord of The Flies in the beginning of the novel are very civilized and stay calm. They figure out a plan that will help them survive but as the time goes by, the “hunters” become consumed with the evilness in their savage ways of hunting. They become more and more savage and become addicted to the death of living things no matter what they may be. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth covers up her savagery by being civilized and kind to the people around her, but when she is alone with Macbeth, she expresses her emotions of savagery and immorality. Macbeth tries to fight his wickedness but the evil inside him is too great and he cannot fight it. In society today, evil is inside every person in the world and some people get so consumed by this evil inside them that they become savage and take it out on people like the boys in Lord of The Flies and Lady Macbeth and Macbeth. But some people maintain that evil inside them or even eliminate that wickedness by having faith and hope that life is not always bad and that there is some good in the world.
Along with everyone else, I believe that the main role of evil in LOF is the "beast." While I was confused at first to why little kids would not be able to recognize a pig/sow as the beast, I was more appalled that Ralph and Jack and Roger did not realize this. I also think that Jack could play the evil role, because he is all about killing pigs, and he doesn't care about anyone or anything else. It takes one evil person to defy leadership, and lure little kids into his group, just because he is power hungry.
In Macbeth, I think that all the witches, and Lady Macbeth are the evil ones. Like in LOF, lady Macbeth is so power hungry that she sacrifices her husbands' reputation, and slate by telling/manipulating him to kill the king-his own cousin.
I think an evil character in all books starts out with the evil within them, and the author just waits for the perfect moment to reveal that evil. Ex- If Lady Macbeth thinks about killing the king, what else is going through her mind? It makes me wonder what she has thought about in the past, because if she was always "goody-goody" then why would this thought even pass by?
I agree with Isalder, about lust for control. It seems like both in these stories, and the world today, people will risk anything to get into a position of power. Politicians will lie about their beliefs, just to get elected. Sometimes, in fact most of the time, we trust people so much that we cannot see evil brewing inside of them. It is misleading, and we definitely need to watch out for it.
Thanks
~Meg
I agree with johnc2012 when he says that evil cannot be pinpointed to just one character. In Lord of the Flies evil hovers over the island constantly. Every boy plays a part in this evil. However, this all around evil is morphed together and represented by the Beastie. The Beastie is a figment of each boy’s imagination. It is not for sure seen or heard, just imagined and somewhat made up; just like evil is made up. Evil needs someone to make evil. Evil does not all of a sudden appear out of the blue, it needs a representative. The ambassador of evil in Lord of the Flies is the Beastie.
The ambassador of evil in the play Macbeth is Lady Macbeth and the assistant of evil is Macbeth. A popular saying is “it takes two to tango.” Lady Macbeth cannot get what she wants, the death of the king, without the help of Macbeth. Her evil flows in and out throughout the play. She takes advantage of her beautiful and manipulative ways of to spread her evil using Macbeth.
Our world today is full of evil. There are two kinds of evil; the evil that exists and the evil that is imagined. The existing evil is what is known to be true: murders, kidnapping, lying, vandalizing, and the list continues on and on. The imagined evil is just as dangerous as the existing evil; rumors, myths, etc. Both evils are capable of constructing as much destruction as the other and are sadly both prevalent in today’s society.
In LOF, the role of evil is filled by Simon. All together he seems antagonistic in every way, between the fact that he is consumed by the want and need to hunt, or the way he enjoys terrorizing the, “littleuns.” This compares to the way Lady Macbeth is completely consumed by the want to become queen, this need compels so far that she has no problem killing someone to get it. The two characters are connected in the way that they both are power-hungry and are driven mad by that need.
Today, weather it is in politics, or government, people are driven by a want to be on top and this only results in misery for those people because they are so consumed in a want for power that they basically destroy themselves.
I agree with Lauren's comment saying that in both LOF and Macbeth the evil is the want for power and dominance over others. Some people, such as Jack and Lady Macbeth, want power so much that they will do anything to get it. As others have said, they might feed through others to take their evil out on but no matter what happens in these 2 pieces of literature, it always ends up having to do with who gets the power. The desire is taking over their minds and thoughts and almost controling them. Sounds kind of like evil right? In some ways, evil is still like that in the world today. There have got to be some evil rulers out there that are so obbsessed with the power that they have collected so they abuse it and will do anything to keep the power. Take everything that has happened in Iraq and Afganistan for example. Jack and Lady Macbeth are both kind of crazy ilke that and want ther leadership and power so bad they they are doing some pretty weird things to get it. I think all people have an evil side, but most people's nice sides over come it. Many other people such as Jack and Lady Macbeth dont have such a great nice side.
I think that in LOF, that the beast is the symbol for evil in the boy's little society. The role of the evil here is to divide the group. The beast made Jack resent Ralph's "weakness", and thus divide into two groups. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, who is the representative of evil, she manipulates her husband to kill the king. So both evils play on the weaknesses of human nature.
In Macbeth, the weakness is the hope for power, in LOF it's the desire to do one's own will, instead of what's needed (i.e. slacking off).
In our world, no one is ever worried by what's out there. We never worry about natural disasters, threats from space, or general tragedy caused by something other than the human race. So what is the world worried about? Other people. Humans have proved to be most afraid of other humans. Terrorists, criminals, and sometimes even misunderstandings with authority figures (like police thinking you're a drug dealer).
Kind of weird when our species is afraid of each other more than almost anything else. On that note, Simon is definitely an insight into the identity of the beast, which is somehow connected to the lord of the flies (which finally shows up in the book). I think Simon might be bipolar or have some kind of psychology problem. So Simon could be the beast, like the dark side of humanity that threatens to destroy society.
I see the role of evil, or more so viciousness, being a very predominant role in these books. I believe that both of these stories are about different aspects of human nature, and part of our nature is a want to be better and ahead, and thus viciousness is born. In Lord of the Flies, although examples could be found throughout "evil" really becomes apparent in their screwed games, and in Macbeth, it's the mental barriers one would have to get over, to kill another man, and without those barriers evil is born. Human nature doesn't cease existing unless humans do, so yes the wanting of power, which is huge in these books are huge in real life. These stories are so universal it's slightly unnerving.
I know this is a little of topic, but what did you guys think about the murder of Simon, I, personally am very disturbed and affected by it and right now I think I am too emotional to really understand it, can you guys help? I guess it is the only really way he can become the Lord of the Flies though.
Thanks!
I think the role of evil is played in the characters themselves. They all have some sort of evil in them, I think. For example, Lady Macbeth. She seems very nice and sweet at first, on the outside she really is, but her inside character is of evil and striving for power. In Lord of the Flies, I think Jack has some evil in him because he has no respect for Ralph and is striving for things to be the way he wants it. Also, the role of evil is the beast in Lord of the Flies. Everyone is afraid of this unknown beast.
Personally, I believe everyone has some sort of good and bad in them. In some people, the evil is greater than good or vice-versa. Lady Macbeth and Jack are two examples with stronger evil or anger than good. In Macbeth, this could play into the idea of betrayal. Lady Macbeth seems easier in the idea of betraying and murdering someone than Macbeth does. Evil equals betrayal.
Today, the idea of betrayal may simply play into everyday life and the role of evil may be represented stronger in some people more than others. Evil could be almost anything, also depending on personal views of the subject.
Macbeth and LOF have a lot in common. Evil in LOF is shown by when the older boys do horribly disgusting things. Such as killing a pig and sticking its head on a stake. In Macbeth, evil is shown when Lady Macbeth convinces Macbeth to kill Duncan, and talks about how she would kill a newborn child. Evil, in my opinion, is shown by fear. LOF fear is shown when the boys fear "The Beast", and attempt to show it how strong they are, thus becoming savages. Macbeth fear is when Lady Macbeth fears that Macbeth is afraid to kill Duncan.
In LOF the role of evil is the Beast or the LOF. This beast emergence is built up to. I say this because there was that one little boy who saw the beast first and then now over time, the book has gotten more in to the beast and its grand entrance in chapter eight.
Then in Macbeth act one the role of evil is the witches and Lady Macbeth. The emergence of evil in act one of Macbeth is more furtive. For when you first start reading Macbeth the witches are in the first scene and then when we first meet Lady Macbeth she is reading a letter from her husband which is perfectly normal and then BAM she turns into this crazy lady who would kill her own child while she was nursing it if she said she would.
The thing is though, that both Macbeth and LOF are very similar in one way. Only Macbeth has talked to Lady Macbeth when she is acting crazy. Then in LOF Simon is the only one who has talked to this crazy LOF.
I would also have to say that the LOF and Macbeth both can be related to the real world. In Macbeth and LOF both Macbeth and Ralph are confused on what to do. Macbeth is trying to decide if he should really kill the king, Ralph doesn’t know what to do next besides take care of the fire, and I don’t know what piece of homework I should do next. What I am trying to say is that everyone gets confused every once in a while.
In both LOF and Macbeth a key role of evil is power. The power to become honored by ohers that are weaker than you.In the LOF the role of evil is the mysterious beast that haunts the boys. The little boys have nightmares about the beast, while some of the older kids think the beast doesn't exsist. The beast is making the boys split up into own groups while it brings them out of civilisation.
in Macbeth I think the role of evil is played my Lady Macbeth. She wants Macbeth to kill the king and she would do it if she had the chance, but Macbeth isn't so sure.
In the world today, people are scared of the evils of terrorism and natural disasters and that is kind of hard to compare to evils of Lady Macbeth, but overall evil is evil.
The role of evil in both of these novels is human nature. Both of the novels deal with power and the need to gain it, which is a big part of human nature. Jack has become something else, almost like a beast, becase he wants the power that Ralph has. Macbeth/Lady Macbeth both want power as well. Because Macbeth is a much more gentle and kinder person, it is very difficult for him to kill the king, whereas Lady Macbeth already has the evil in her heart. Another part of this evil human nature is the cheating and lying done by the characters. The Macbeths are setting a trap for the king, by welcoming him into their home and then killing him. Today, this is the same, people want power. This can be seen in the evil things done by the terrorists, and muslim groups around the world.
The evil in Macbeth is greed and coveting of power. The only reason Lady Macbeth lost it is because she wanted the power the king has. Anyone would probably become evil if they had a chance of receiving the power that a king has. Lady Macbeth received the evil through the unsexing and the thickening of her blood.
In LOF it is greed, jealousy, in a way not being able to accept that your wrong, and the imaginary beast. Greed as in Jack. He wants to be the leader of the group but he can't because Ralph. He uses his "hunters" to gain a higher place in the chain than what his title places him at. Jack is also jealous in the book of Piggy. Piggy is smart and knows what they need to do to survive on the island. Jack thinks the best thing on the island is meat so that is all he wants to get but he can't understand what is really going on, so when piggy tells him he gets angry but is also can't accept that he is wrong. That's why Jack gets angry with Piggy and breaks his glasses. The last thing is the beast. The beast seems to be stalking them but its not really there. The little ones think it is really there so they worry about it the most. The beast is imaginary and seems evil because its intentions seem to be to kill them.
The evil in both of the books is made by the people making evil a characteristic of people.
I think that the beast demonstrates the role of evil in LOF. Everyone is so afraid of something they don’t even know is real. It is tearing the group apart. The boys now see the island as a dark place. I agree with robertc2012 when he relates this to our world today. In Macbeth, I think the role of evil is represented by the witches and Lady Macbeth. The witches are always trying to cause chaos and wreak havoc for everyone. Lady Macbeth is perceived to be weak and innocent but in reality is crazy and psycho. In our world today I think we fear evil. Evil comes from all sources in our everyday lives. It comes from people, things, ideas, places etc. I think that Macbeth and LOF both have roles of evil that are different but also similar.
I see evil as a corrupter because in both works the evil character both start out relatively well minded but turn progressively more evil as time goes on.
Both Jack and Lady Macbeth desire to seize the job of ruler from its rightful possessor. Jack wants to take Ralphs title as chief and Lady Macbeth wants her husband and her to size Duncan’s throne.
I can not think of any individual examples of a person or people becoming evil in order to gain power. Both Jack and Lady Macbeth could be scene as dictators coming into power through malevolent means but currently there are no dictators coming into power.
Although it is just her that is evil, the evilness spreads to Macbeth. Similarly, Jack is the only evil one on the island, but his evilness will take hold of the other boys. It spreads from them mostly because they are the leaders.
Another point I would like to bring up is that they are not only driven mad by power but also by waiting for that power. Lady Macbeth is waiting for the King to die so that she can have power, while Jack is waiting to be rescued from the island so the other boys can think that he is the one who has power.
Evil seems to be the underlying theme in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies. Evil must reside somewhere, mainly in someone. In the play Macbeth the role of evil comes out particularly in Lady Macbeth and the King of Scotland. Lady Macbeth is plotting to kill the king and evil takes over her body in the outrage of not making Macbeth the Thane of Cawdor, directly leading to the heir of the throne. Evil also resides in the King of Scotland because he purposefully makes someone else heir to the throne right in front of Macbeth, being mean to Macbeth. In Lord of the Flies evil seems to reside in everyone, but the main evil source is Jack, the leader of the hunters. Jack does not really care about anyone but himself and doesn’t really care if the children and he are not found. There are some parallels throughout the last 100 years, evil dictators caring about only themselves and money, Hitler would be a good example, as well as Saddam Hussein. Evil resides in both of these evil dictators.
I think in Lord of the Flies the role of evil is not in Jack as many people may think but in the disorder and darwinism that he represents. Jack believes that only those who can hunt and survive for themselves are worthy to live. In macbeth one similarity is someone the leader trusts tries to sieze power from the leader. In LOF it's Jack taking power from Ralph and in Macbeth it's Macbeth and Lady Macbeth trying to take it from Duncan. I think the main similarity to real life is that if people were to be stranded eventually order would fall apart and they would base their decisions upon the basic necessities of life.
Looking back at Chapter 5 you see that the ‘beast’ is all ready starting to get to the littluns and the biguns are trying to persuade the littluns that there just being sissies. However, instead of persuading the littluns that it just there imagination, they too then start thinking that it’s real. For a minute in this chapter, the worries are forgotten and the boys are able to laugh about those fears,that is until Jack asked were the beast lived and Percival responded that it lived in the sea; worries can’t always be forgotten easily.
After read Macbeth and LOF, you start to realize that in both books neither Jack, nor Lady Macbeth, is willing to accept the position they have and are willing to sacrifice other lives just to get what they want, which is power. It doesn’t matter if someone else has done a great job of leading other and is fair and nice ,but they have to challenge the system so they can get what they want even thought it will hurt others. For example in Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are going to kill the king, well somebody’s got to take the blame of the death and they and there family are in jeopardy, but does that concern Lady Macbeth and Macbeth- no; in LOF Jack separates the boys into two groups and instead of taking down the beast together as a group, they spilt up and are now able to be divided and conquered, all because Jack wanted to be chief.
I don’t think however, that Jack is evil like Lady Macbeth is. That is because Lady Macbeth is purposely trying to kill the King for her own gain; Jack on the other hand just makes dumb decisions that will end up coming back to hunt him. Personally I think that the Lord of Flies (aka- beast) is more evil than Jack because he has malicious intent.
Today I think people who are truly evil are those who are: willing to hurt others for personal gain or entertainment, has no conscious, spreads lies and propaganda, purposely causes fear, and get on top and takes out others in the process.
I also had some questions while I was reading-
• The Lord of Flies is the person who parachuted on to the island? And if so how did he find the island
• Did the Lord of Flies shoot down the plane that the boys were on
• Is the Lord of Flies a soldier because the book takes place in WWII?
• Is the Lord of Flies hypnotizing Simone and that’s why he is so batty. Did he do this to Percival too?
Evil in books can be represented or referred to as itself. Either way it is the same thing. Generally the evil in a book is the antagonist, the person or thing that is preventing the protagonist from getting what they want. The role of evil in a story is to make the story. It makes the plot more interesting. It makes the reader think. Even in subtle ways evil can play a big role in many books. In LOF evil is represented by the beast. This is a clear and direct reference to evil, even though the words are never directly linked. In Macbeth, evil is inside of a person. It is inside of Macbeth for wanting to kill his cousin for his own personal gain, and in side of Lady Macbeth even more for pushing her husband to do so. The concept of evil is represented in both works. It emerges with human nature. All humans have that little drop of evil in them; it takes the right circumstances to make it come out though. In LOF Jack turns more and more evil, eventually breaking off on his own. In Macbeth, the evil is brought out of Lady Macbeth through the circumstances she is under. She wants so badly to be queen she is willing to kill. Evil can also be brought out in people in the real world also, not just in books. I think that politics can bring out the evil in people. They want so badly to win that they are willing to hurt the other person, maybe not physically, but the other person’s emotions and reputation. This may not parallel any book I know of, but it certainly is evil playing a role in the world today.
Oh its really interesting how everyone can perceive this book so differently.
Personally, I thought the lord of the flies was death because death and rotting and only that brings flies together, so I guess I didn't see it as any ONE thing.
But I am not sure.
The role of evil is actually most of the time not physical. There is a sort of evil state of mind in each book. In the LOTF the evil state of mind is held by Jack who is more considered with the fun of killing things than the nessisarity of keeping the fire going. This is the sort of evil that will get them all killed. Also when the beat that innocent kid up there is the evil want. The want to kill and hurt something probably because they are all frustrated but for different reasons. In Macbeth the evil state of mind is the want for power. He is willing to kill the king and his son to gain promised power. In both works this state of mind is achieved when power is available for people to get. This relates very well to the Gaza conflict. People think that getting to land will give them more power so they are willing to kill to get it. I think this is a fairly ridiculous idea in all aspects a strip of land half the size of Maryland will not give you power. The same is true with the situations in both texts.
There is no such thing as good or evil, just criminals and justice. this has been a quote used lots of time, so what exactly is evil? most have been saying that it is defying the system, but what if the system is evil itself. then it would be good to defy it. it seems that evil has been portrayed in both books as killing to gain (Macbeth) and leaving others to starve and to fend for yourself (LOF). Both roles of "evil" have been symbolized by Lady Macbeth and Jack's Idea of fending for selves. The emergence of each came from greed and ignorance. Lady Macbeth's greed came from the possibility of being a Queen from the prophecy of the witches. Macbeth isn't as evil as it seems that Lady Macbeth is using him to do her deeds. In the LOF, Jack is getting frustrated from the rest and finally has the idea to let the ones who can get food will and those who can't.....well.....die. This can be linked to the war in iraq, and that Iraq considers the US as evil for destroying their way of life. when i fact we think we are good for helping them, we may also be evil for taking charge and changing them.
The main role of evil is being played by the main characters in each story. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and Macbeth both plan to kill King Duncan. In Lord of the Flies, Jack is taking over the island telling everyone that there is no need for what Ralph wants. All Jack can think about is himself and how they are going to survive at the island. These stories both connect with one phrase; with power you corrupt, with absolute power, you corrupt absolutely. This means that when u take over with absolute power, everything will backfire and corrupt.
Now-a-days, people worry about too many things. For example, people worry about global warming way too much. They make it take control of their life. Or the presidential election. People pay too much attention to all of that going around they can't keep a steady life going.
The evil in LOF can be seen either as “The Beast”, or also as Jack. “The Beast” is a physical manifestation of the boys fear. Following in the idea of social symbolism, “The Beast” represents savagery. The boys are scared of it, and know that its out there, and coming. Just like with the beginning of social order, there were many setbacks when progress was attempted. Jack also represents a setback to social order. He represents one way that social order could’ve gone, and did in some cases.
Like “The Beast” and Jack, Lady Macbeth also represents a setback in social order. Not because she is a woman, but because she represents savagery, and killing to get what you want. She represents both dictatorship over her husband, and savagery over the king, and anyone who gets in her way.
There are many relations between LOF and Macbeth, and more will appear as our progress in the books progress.
After reading the first eight chapters of L.O.F. and the first act of Macbeth, I believe that the role of evil is the internal struggle for power. I agree with Bridget how Ralph and Jack are struggling for power as chief over the island. Unlike Ralph though, Jack was struggling whether he wanted to be chief or take power from Ralph. Just like Macbeth, Jack was struggling whether he wanted more power and whether to defy the system. It was apparent that Jack had a small amount of loyalty for Ralph or he would have broken away from Ralph’s “tribe” earlier. This is parallel to how Macbeth also had a small amount of loyalty to Duncan because he is does not want to kill him. Although both examples struggle about whether they wan to take power for themselves, they eventually do. When Jack takes his power, he changes and becomes savage.
I believe the beast in Lord of the Flies is magnifecently similar to Lady Macbeth. When thinking of a beast you think of a hairy, creepy, sharp-toothed creature. Which is precisley what Lady Macbeth desires to be.
I think that the role of evil is completely subjective. What one person thinks is evil could be utterly different from another person’s idea of what evil is. For instance, in Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth would not think of themselves as evil, they would just think that they were doing what they had to in order to make it in the world. That’s the case with all “villains”. They think that what they are doing is right and they truly believe that they should not be punished. it all depends on the way you choose to look at it. You see, I can understand why Macbeth and Lady Macbeth thought that they had to kill the king. I can understand why they would want to be royalty. And honestly, who wouldn’t try to do whatever they could to get on top when three ladies told you that it was your destiny? Sure, not everyone would first think to kill the people to take their place, but during the time that Macbeth takes place in, killing was kind of normal. In Lord of the Flies, I think that Jack wants to be the boss just like Macbeth does. Throughout the book, I’ve noticed how whenever Ralf would make a choice for the group that was subjective, Jack would jump at the opportunity to call Ralf on it and try to turn the others against Ralf. But of course, Jack would not consider himself evil. Like I said, it all depends on how you regard it.
I think the role of evil in Lord of the Flies is split between The Beast and Jack. The Beast is the clear evil in the story, it causes everyone to be scared and worry all the time, and no one can be at peace until they know that he is dead. Jack is a more hidden evil. Even though through most of the book he has cooperated, he always knew that he wanted to be the leader, not Ralph, and in the end he would do whatever it took to be the leader, even if it meant splitting off from the rest of the group. Also, Lady Macbeth and The Beast are very similar kinds of evil. They both emerge slowly, you don't realize they are as evil as they are until later on in the story. The Beast doesn't even exist for sure until chapter seven or eight. When you know it exists though, it comes out in full force and everything revolves around killing the beast or just ignoring it all together. Lady Macbeth is much the same. She doesn't act evil in the beginning, but as act one progresses, you realize just how evil she really is, especially when she says that she would kill a baby. Today there are plenty examples of this type of thing going on. Many of the dictators in the Middle East for example didn't seem evil when they first came into power, most people were ok with them being their leaders. But once they came into power, they showed their true colors and became the evil people they are today. Clearly, the role of emerging evil is not a new concept and has been going on in our world for many, many years.
In LOF, evil has bacome a major factor in the actions and decisions of the boys. This is because with evil comes fear, and fear can control one above all else. This particular evil,though could come from a number of places. The most obvious source is the "beast", which was origionally imagined by the littluns. (I think that the biguns went along with this in order to disguise what they felt was "irrational" fear of being on the island.)The beast, being imaginary, has become a symbol of all the bad things on the island. Another source of evil is Jack. Jack's evil, however, is more related to Ralph than to anyone else. This is because Jack and his evil are a direct threat to Ralph's "throne" on the island.
In reference to Johnc2012's quote from page 115, I think that what was described there was less of an "evil" and more of the savagery that has overcome that boys subconsciously during their time on the island.
In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth is the only clear evil at this time. She seems to be a woman on a mission, so to speak, and she really must have no conscience. The influence she will exert on Macbeth may later lead to their downfall.
In modern society, similar to what is happening in LOF, we have started to find things to blame our fear on. we are scared of terrorism, so we get involved in the Middle East to try and create peace there. We are scared of losing control of our nation in general, so we pinpoint things (such as illegal immigration) that we feel could harm us as a country. Also like in LOF, fear is really ruling most of our toughts, actions, and decisions both in the US and internationally.
After reading the first act of Macbeth and The first eight chapters of Lord of the Flies I have found many evils. In both works of literature there seems to be an instigator of evil. In Macbeth there is the witches and Lady Macbeth. The witches confuse people into doing evil deeds and Lady Macbeth convinces her husband to do evil crimes for her thirst of power. Similarly, in Lord of the Flies the beast and Jack are the instigators of evil. The beast installs fear among the children that will drive them to do anything to stay away from the beast no matter how evil. Jack is very power thirsty and instigates evil in people to get his way. Lady Macbeth and Jack are great parallels. They are both crazy for power and they will do anything to receive it. They both also become possessed when they are either killing or talking about killing. Jack goes crazy when slaying a pig and Lady Macbeth goes insane when planning out how she will kill King Duncan. The thirst for power is present in today’s world. Many people are crave power and will do anything to get it. The people who are willing to kill for power are the evil people in our world and they need to be stopped before they do too much damage to our world.
Both LOF and Macbeth, evil is manifested in the characters by the desire to kill and to cause pain. Lady Macbeth has a desire to kill Duncan and will literally do anything to kill him, including smashing an infant’s brains out against a wall. The boys in LOF have a desire to kill the pigs for feelings of power and importance. The “Beast” is also tearing the boys apart because it is imaginary, but their conscious leads them to believe otherwise. The boys are obviously being driven onto very evil things on the island.
In today’s world, it is hard to comprehend why people do such evil things. People have frightening desires to harm other people out of frustration, anger, and sometimes inconceivable grief. I cannot understand a longing to be such a corrupted person. Jack in LOF, I think displays such evil as an outlet to his frustration that Ralph was elected leader. Like many people today, Jack is a control freak and it manifests itself in erratic behavior when everyone does not worship him.
I agree with Robert I believe that the evil in LOF is the imaginary beast that the boys are getting afraid of. I think that the evil in Macbeth is Lady Macbeth. She is plotting to kill a good person, the king, for her personal gain. This sounds very devious and evil to me.
In our world, people are extremely power hungry, like Lady Macbeth. Everyone wants to have more power than they do. For example, terrorists attack because they want to be feared to gain power. Also, people are very afraid of what they don't know. Like a dark alley.
In Macbeth the only true evil that has come up is Lady Macbeth, who easily can manipulate her husband, Macbeth. Macbeth in turn doubts her decisions but Lady Macbeth has a power over him that he can’t over come. In Lord of the Flies the ‘beast’ is the evil. The beast is really an image of fear in all of the boy’s minds. It’s not real, but the boys make it seem real. The fear that builds up around this ‘imaginary beast’ creates confusion, doubt, and the corruption of the society built on the island. The beast/evil lurks in the imagination of all the boys, and in dreams.
The emergence of evil is only when the characters become greedy. In Macbeth, Macbeth himself wants to be king. When he tells his wife of his goal, she becomes greedy and wants the power. In Lord of the Flies Jack wants to hunt and eat. The boys created an evil out of their own greed and lost respect for one another and reality.
Evil lurks in everything we do, whether it be in books or reality. Today, people find ways to cover up their mistakes, a scapegoat. In LOF the scapegoat is the beast and in Macbeth it hasn’t become apparent yet. In life today, kids blame things on their parents, or students blame things on their teachers, or politicians blame things on the president/white house. Fear builds up in our society because we are afraid of not being rescued (like in LOF). Evil has emerged. We elect a new president every 4 or 8 years because we believe he/she can rescue us, but it’s really a group effort. In LOF nobody is working together, their society is falling apart so they blame their fear on the beast. The evil is created in times of fear, blame, and corruption in books and in real life.
I would have to agree with Bridget about the evil in each book to be not a specific person but an idea of a craving of power that has been consumed by a character in each book. In Macbeth the thing that drives Lady Macbeth insane and transforms her into, as Ms. Smith said psycho, psycho, psycho, is her vision that she could have power so she is willing to become so totally evil just to get it. And in Lord of the Flies the arise of evil influence comes between Jack and Ralph as they both want to be leader and have that control and power. In the world there are similar situations such as, at school in the student body, sometimes girls can be extremely vicious and go to extent in which they don’t care how it makes the other girls feel just as long as they get there way. In other words when they hurt other girls, and show signs of evil influence, it is because making them feel inferior and gives them a sense of power and a feeling of being better (like Lady Macbeth’s circumstance). Also, like Bridget already said the world of politics is nasty and conniving in some aspects because they want to win the race or election or whatever, and they want to be the best. So they enter into a battle of evil in which they do whatever it takes to be the best (like Jack and Ralph’s circumstance).
In Macbeth I see the role of evil as Lady Macbeth. She is clearly an obvious source of evil and you can tell that she is up to wrong doing. In LOF I see the role of evil as the beast. The beast is what is separating the boys and making them scared and savage. I see a connection between Lady Macbeth and the beast because the more you learn about each of them, the more evil and frightening they become. I see a parallel to today through the beast. At first, when we were introduced to this evil we thought it was a myth or lie but once we saw for ourselves [in LOF] we realized that the beast was a very real thing. I feel that in today's world, we at first saw something such as terrorism as a story, but we realized it was real as soon as something bad happened.
In Macbeth the true evil is the desire for power. Lady Macbeth is always seen yearning for power, but never out of this controlled state of mind. Lady Macbeth has never been in power from what the play has showed. The viewer does not know what she is like when power is not within her reach. The appearance of Lady Macbeth is that she is the most evil character in the play, but the reality is she is always shown in situations that make it easy for her to be overcome by her instinct to control others. In LOF the beast is described as evil. The children see the beast as evil, but do not see the evil building up between them. Jack’s instinct helps him to kill and Ralph’s is to help himself get back to civilization. Ralph is building up anger towards Jack and is on the edge of becoming evil. Both of them are under the influence of power that is within their reach. The beast is not the true evil. Everything revolves around it, but it has not done anything that is evil. It causes commotion and anxiousness, but never harms anyone directly or with any intention to. The real evil lies within the boys instinct.
In LOF evil is represented by the beast, the boys get freaked out by it more and more. Even though they know its not there, they are terified of it.
In macbeth, the witches are the evil, they lead macbeth to try to kill duncan and they end up being his fatal flaw
Aha... The themes and ideas of Lord of the Flies are very deeply and intimately connected. Indeed one of the major themes of each of these books is greed, jealousy, power and control which is really just a manifestation of the human need to feel good about themself, boost their ego and give their life meaning and importance. In Lord of the Flies evil is represented in many ways. One of these is the antagonist is Jack. Jack is a boy who arrives on the island as a civilized and well behaved boy.
Aha... The themes and ideas of Lord of the Flies are very deeply and intimately connected. Indeed one of the major themes of each of these books is greed, jealousy, power and control which is really just a manifestation of the human need to feel good about them self, boost their ego and give their life meaning and importance.
In Lord of the Flies evil is represented in many ways. One of these is the antagonist is Jack. Jack is a boy who arrives on the island civilized and well behaved. However the longer Jack stays isolated from society the more his natural, animalistic human nature becomes apparent. Jack craves only power, violence, and control over others. He becomes corrupted by these things and wants to meet only his cruel distorted interests.
Another manifestation pf the idea of evil is the Beast. The Beast is a fear that lives inside all the boys and represents the evil that is bringing them down. It is a fear of the unknown and of their situation manifested in a way that the young boys minds can comprehend. It also represents the unconscious desire of the human mind for violence and control and savagery. They are all afraid of their capacity for violence and the “evil” that lives inside them and the beast is their way of expressing this fear which is ironic because the imagined presence of the beast is driving them to act in an even more uncivilized manner and is letting them be increasingly manipulated by evil.
Evil in Macbeth plays a similar role. It is represented by the Witches who represent the temptation of evil in all of us. It is this temptation of evil that causes good people like Macbeth to commit evil atrocities. Lady Macbeth who seeks power and control above all else manifests this form of evil; she is greedy and jealous of the power of the other, more powerful royals. It is her evil that eventually causes Macbeth who is a good and moral person to commit unspeakable acts if evil, which represents how the capacity for evil lives inside all of us and can easily overwhelm us.
I think this is very similar to what is going on today. I think most people are good people who do not truly seek to hurt others. However they become corrupted by their nature, fear natural, primordial, unconscious desires (such as power), societal pressures (such as status). I think this is what causes almost all of the problems and pain in our society.
Two characters that I am beginning to find parallels between are Macbeth and Jack, and Ralph and King Duncan. Jack is very courageous and seems as though he would be a good leader, but his tragic flaw is probably the need for power, exactly like Macbeth. And then, when Jack gets angry, he tries to take Ralph down from his position of power, and when that doesn’t work he goes off on his own with a few of his followers.
Ralph is like King Duncan in the sense that they are both leaders of a society and they both seem very calm and collected. They know (for the most part) what is best for their society. They both also have someone who secretly hates them and wants their power. I can’t figure out who Piggy parallels with yet but I’m sure it will click as a read farther into both stories.
Also as I have been reading Lord of the Flies, at the end of chapter 8 Simon starts having hallucinations about the sow's head that Jack and the hunters put up on a stick for the Beast. It is like Simon is having an imaginary conversation with this sow's head that has been named (in his mind) the Lord of the Flies. I think that this imaginary figure could be the role of evil in LOF because it is being the antagonist by getting into Simon's head and telling him that he is unwanted by everyone else. The role of evil in Macbeth would definitely be either the Weird Sisters or Lady Macbeth, but since they both use evil spirits and such I think that they could be put under the same category.
Wow. A lot has happened in chapter 7 and 8. It’s too bad that most of the kids have last respect for Ralph. I thought he would come out to be the hero but the night is young in this book. I think evil has come out in everyone in this book. Just as always, the wild turns people into savages, but it’s not really savage because the kids are just trying to adapt to their habitat. If they don’t they will die. But I do believe that the kids have over done it just a little when Roger did you-know-what to that sow…. Gross!
Anyway, the evil in Macbeth and LOF compare to each other in that the people in both books are just trying to survive. Although it’s sort of unclear why Lady Macbeth wants to kill Duncan, I’m sure there is a liable explanation. Both characters are presented with an obstacle and in order to over come it, there is some evil required.
Not only the beast but the whole concept of the dark being bad.
In LoF the night is whats evil. The day theres no thought of the evil but during the day people seem to have an issue.
In Macbeth the role of magic and sprits are the evil, not the characters but the character types.
In modern times the true evil is the unresponibility of the world for its actions. People wont take credit for astrocity.The economy is poor and certain people dont take up and say it was there fault and then correct it.
I agree with ericak. I believe that the evilness spreads from Jack to the other boys. It also spreads from Lady Macbeth to Macbeth. Both Jack and Lady Macbeth want power and would do anything to get it. Jack has always wanted power and now his evil side is finally showing. He never did what Ralph asked and he always acted like he had power. I think most people want a little power. It is the people that try to take too much power that become evil. Lady Macbeth tries to take control over Macbeth. Both Ralph and Macbeth are confused about what to do. We fear evil but we really should fear the evil people inside.
I think the role of evil in Macbeth as well as in LOF is in the characters, the people themselves, which makes the thought of evil so much scarier. Lady Macbeth and Jack (LOF) are bad seeds. They have evil that lingers within them,they are both power hungry and will stop at nothing to get what they want. They do not care what happens to anyone else but themselves.
Macbeth also has evil within him or else he would have refused to Lady Macbeth's plan of murder.
Megg, I totally agree with your comment about how an author will plant evil inside a character a wait for the moment to reveal it.
Isadler, I so agree with the comment you made about people being paranoid about loosing power and that if humans were to be put in an environment with no rules all our primitive instincts would come out.
I think it is interesting that Golding used boys to tell the story of LOF. If I had to choose the least civilized gender/ age in our world it would be young boys. This book shows how civilized our world has become, but it also shows how meaningless our moral compass becomes when put in a primal/desperate situation.
In our world evil comes from within, just as in LOF and Macbeth. We can't say all politicians are evil, just because we do not agree with some of their policies or a choice they made. Most of them are trying to do what they think is best. We all make mistakes and change our decisions or go against our beliefs because we think it will benefit us in the long run. I think of evil kind of as a smile. You can smile on purpose, you can smile naturally, and sometimes a smile just sneaks our involuntarily. This doesn't mean that a smile is appropriate, I'm just saying that it happens.
I agree with Bridget that the role of evil in both is power thirsty humans. The drive for power is corrupting them. Once Lady Macbeth hears that she could possibly be queen, she drowns herself in this idea and tries to do everything she can to get it. She becomes evil and tries to murder people to get what she wants. She became absorbed in power that she became evil to get it. In Lord of the Flies, Jack wants to become chief and starts fighting with Ralph. Again the desire to be powerful consumes him and makes him evil.
In our world, power has always driven people to extremes. This has been going on since the Romans. People receive power, like it, want more, and then become evil and push people out of their ways to get it. Everything today is about power. We just have to be careful so it doesn’t consume us.
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