why would maontag want a glass of milk, an apple, and a pear?
milk could represent maternity or nature, an apple could represent sin, like adam and eve, and a pear could represent a woman. like a female shape
What is the significance of those foods? This kind of reminds of a prisoner's last meal on death row. They get to eat whatever they whatever they want. Does this relate in the same concept?
Caroline-I dont think so, because he doesnt know whether he will die or not, but he just needs something healthy to keep him going
Maybe Montag wanted them because they reminded him of something that he ate when he was little. Maybe he has not been able to eat them for a long time and he just really wanted milk, an apple, and a pear.
Annasophia: I totally agree with you! I also want to add, that he could possiably just be hungry too.
annasofia- why would montag want sin?
Kaeli- But after or before a traumativm experience don't you want something comforting? Isn't that kind of like what he wants?
Maybe Montag wanted them because they were from the earth and that was something him and faber had dicscussed.
Couldn't they just be the first things that came into his mind?
Did you guys like the ebook, what were your reactions?
Do you think that Montag thinks that he is going to die? Or does he think that he can survive?
Caroline- sort of, but does that food seem comforting to you? It could be to him, but it doesnt seem like that would be comforting food.
So I know that we were saying that the government had made the war up, if that was true why would they bomb themselves?
the mirror reminds me of the saying "pull the log out of your own eye"
I meant "book" in my first comment, sorry.
Kaeli- I know you like to pretned that you're lactose intolerant but I can't think of alot else more comforting than a glass of milk. I think that he is just craving that comfort, and that normality in his life. At least that's what i see in the milk.
Katie: I think that whether he ides or lives is beside the point, I would think that the main idea is that he made it that far so death would be something less daunting.
What do you guys think that burning bright signifies in this section?
Katie- I think that Montag knows that he will die soon because of all that he has done and he might think that his luck has run out. He might believe that he could survive, but it's a very small chance.
Katie: I think Montag thinks he is going to die until he sees that the mechanical hound 'killed' him. When he sees that I think that he thinks that he might be able to survive.
Kailyn- I think that they bombed themselves because they all had that suicidal inclanation of this society. The government had it too, and they did it on a large scale
Katie- I think there is chance he believes he will survive but I also think that he wouldn't care if he survived or not just as long as his point was made in society.Kind of like dying for a cause you know?
Lauren - I agree. But what do you think is going through his mind at this point about his future?
Do you guy think that this society is in a hopeless spiral down, or is there a slight glimmer of hope?
That is an interesting comment Caroline, but maybe they had just been a vulnerable people that had been bombed by another country.
Kailyn: I liked the book. It really changed how I see the world and the future. I think it is like Uglies by Scott Westerfeld in some ways.
Taylor - Yeah that makes sense. Like he is willing to sacrafise himself so that he can prove his point almost?
Katie- Doesn't everyone die at some point? I think that he is based on a survival instinct and he may start thinking about it later.
Kailyn- Couldn't they have just bombed themselves to better convince society that they were in a war. They might have bombed themselves to scare the people.
Katie: I think he sees himself in so much potential and endless possibilites that the door is wide open. I can see Montag in the future constantly changing and developing as a intellectual.
lauren- I think that there is a small glimmer of hope that maybe the outside world could come in or people like Montag could change things, but I think that that hope is very small. At this point, I think there is little chance of change.
In the banned book I had read someone questioned whether it is better to die drastically and nobely, or live humbly?
Lsadler: I don’t think that this society can’t pull out of the downward spiral, but I also don’t think that people are doing as much as they could in order to pull out of it.
Lsandler: I think it could be either. I think that it could be going downward, because of the bombs and "war," but there is also a glimmer of hope because of all of the hobos retaining information.
Kailyn- That could be true too, but they never said anything about being vunerable. They said about the other countries starving and being mad about them. Who would have, or could have bombed them?
Maybe they bombed themselves, because not enough people were scared.
Lauren- What if Montag gave up?
I think we are focusing on things that we can never really know which is just unecessary...
Katie and Lauren- I think at this point, he is thinking not only about survival, but he still has hope for the future through Faber and other scholars that are still in the main cities and part of society.
Kristen: You make an excellent point and that I think is the reason for the booke. We discussesed in the inner circle a few days ago that having the society collapse on itself would send out a greater message.
Do you think that Clarisse hadreally walked there, or that it was just what she had stood for?
Kailyn - That would be a sneaky strategy. But do you really think that they would do that?
Kailyn- What if alot of people were scared, but they were not scared enough?
Brooke: Then why would he have tried?
kailyn - I highly doubt that the government has the malice to bomb their own citizens.
Kailyn- I think they might have done that to make everything look more realistic like for example in a crime someone who is considered a suspect by the investigators, and knows he is guilty, might frame himself to therefore convince everyone else he is a victim so as to shed him from the possibility of being the criminal.I am not sure if that makes sense but I guess I am trying to say that the government bombed themselves to make it seem more realistic
bHer spirit is still alive within him which is why she is dead but alive... I agree that the mystery of her ending drives the story forward which is why her death is necessary... She drove the story forward...
But Caroline,aren't they vulnerable, I mean no one cares about anything, there is nothing there to stop anyone, not even rebellion in there own country.
Kelsey in the inner circle- I totally agree. With Clarisse leaving, he was forced out of his comfort home and had to think for himself, rather than simply thinking about what Clarisse told him to. If she had stayed, he may have remained in the same state of thinking about change, but not doing anything about it.
Kailyn: I think this could show what she stood for because walking on the tracks symbolizes being free and escaping the socitey.
What do you guys think that each character symbolizes? Montag? Clarisse, Mildred? In my opinon, Clarisse is the innocent, young, beautiful girl who started the fire in Montag to make him think of change.
I interpret Dead but alive in a different sense. Ideas are shown as an interpretation of the person themselves. She could have died, but the idea is still there
The guilty man that was killed for Montag, I don't think was killed in vain, what do you think?
Ziven- This government has the malice to kill innocent people when they can't find the real criminal. Why wouldn't they bomb their own people? They don't have morals, they have TV
I think that Montag said that he felt that she had been there because maybe she was never physicaly there, he was not following her, but that he was following her ideas.
Lauren: If the city collapsed upon itself then there wouldn’t be a greater message in of the fact that the bomb destroyed the town, because the bomb meant that someone was behind it. Don’t you think?
Caroline-aside from milk, how are a pear and an apple comforting? What part of that says comforting to you?
Paul- I sort of agree with you. If she had still been there would Montag ever have gone to Faber or tried to make a difference at all?
Why do you doubt they would kill their own citizens? Look at all the other crazy stuff they have pulled on these people to seek power and happiness... This book is supposed to reflect ideas in our society and many times governments have killed their own people throughout history.
Yeah thats what I meant Katie, I think that another word for it might be a martyr but I am not sure.
Death appears to be a big theme in this book. Why?
Do you agree with the rebellers, that time is the best defense?
Kailyn- They still care a little. When Montag read the poetry Mildred's friend got upset and kept saying how bad and illegal it was. Wouldn't they be able to care, otherwise how does everyone still stay the way they are?
Annasophia brings up a good point in the innercircle. What do you guys think will happen? Re build the city? Or start over as something new?
Kailyn: I agree that his death was "justified". If he hand't of died the search for Montag would have continued and realisticaly they would have found him and his escape would have been for not.
How do you guys think the book would have turned out if Montag hadn't shown Mildred the books. When do you guys think that the turning point of Montag's mind was?
Brook- because maybe death causes a reaction when nothing else does.
Kaeli-A pear, milk and an apple are all natural things which come from nature... This is comforting in a society where everything is all about techonology... It is like returning to a simpler, happier time time which he depsperately craves....
Megg- I think Clarisse is the spark, Montag is a piece of wood to catch fire and burn, and Milred is a wet piece of wood that has the same qualities as Montag, but cannot burn.
Megg- as you said, Clarisse is shown as a fire starter for Montag, but a delicate teenager. Montag is the actual fire in the book. The "hero" in a sense. Mildred is Montag is his wife, and she is a common person of the time, (Dead but Alive) but is a problem for Montag in the end.
Kaeli- The apple and the pear I think represent new beginnings, because once you're done with the apple, or the pear, you throw it onn the ground, and it starts a new pear or apple.So he wanted comfort, and a new beginning, a change.
Kelsey- Creating something causes a reaction also. Do you think that distroying something causes a bigger reaction than creating something?
Isander, doesn't his death also show a weakness in the Farenheit society?
Bridget - that is an interesting comment. But I don't get what you mean when you say Mildred has the same qualities as Montag because they seemed totaly different to me.
Megg- I think that Montag is the noble hero who is almost pressured, but the good kind of pressure, by Clarrisse and yeah I agree she is like the fire inside of him or I guess maybe sort of the inspiration. So Montag is the main character who is sort of undecided and then Mildred is pulling him one way and Clarisse is pulling him the other way.
Brooke- I think death is a big theme because this book is all about balance. Where is the line between equality and too equal? Likewise, with death comes life, and a maintenance of balance.
Brooke- Death is not only a big theme in this book, it is a big theme in a lot of books. Writers like to make points and make people think, about death, about life, about different lives.
If Montag hadn't shown Mildred the books, he probably wouldn't have been turned in, Beatty might still be alive, and I say might very loosely, and the world might still be the same.
Caroline - They wouldn't kill there own people because the government officials would have no way to make money.
Kailyn- it gets down to when is death justified? Was it selfish to take another life no matter how innocent or guilty to save the life of another. Whats the greater good?
Brooke: To the question that you asked Kelsey, I think that destroying something makes a much bigger reaction because you are taking something out of society instead of creating something beneficial.
Bridget- that reminds me of what Faber said earlier, that they were like fire and water.
Well ya Inner Circle there are so many times in history things like this happened. What about the Aztecs. That was classic rule by fear.
Ziven- No one said they killed all their people. They just killed enough to make the others fear them.
Katie- Because Mildred is still human. She has a heart and a brain and a concience. However, Montag's was not buried so deap, so he could still access it all. Mildred still has all of those qualities but they have been hidden and unused for so much longer and are so much deeper that she cannot get to them. Do you know what I mean?
Brooke-I just think the theme of death in this case goes back to the society's indifference to it which is so important because it plays right into the books most important theme of the lack of emmotion and feeling and the lack of importance of life to these peeople...
Meg: If Montag hadn't shown Mildred the books the book probably would have ended or might not have been written. I think Montag showing Mildred the books was a big part of the book and it was his flaw. If he hadn't shown her the books he probably would have gotten away with his plan.
"If they give you ruled paper write the other way." - Jimenez-beggining of bookWhat does this mean, to you?
Kristen: How do you know the object created is beneficial because there are a lot of things that are created that are not beneficial.
Incase nobody else has realized this, history tends to repeat itself.
Again like the Aztecs there message was oppose us and you'll end up getting your heart cut out while your still alive.
Kristen- Could distroying be beneficial also?
If there is a greater good, what is it?
Jacob- Yes, it does tend to repeat itself, but to what extent?
Kailyn- To me this means that you should rebel, challenge the system. Do whatever is NOT the norm.
Bridget - Yeah kind of that makes more sense. Like she had the same capabilities of burning that fire but something was holding her back (the water) which could be the tv?
Caroline - Atomic weapons are pretty powerful. They certainly kill a LOT of people
Brook- but nothing was being created. People tend to be more passionate about destruction than creation. Think about 911. It got a bigger reaction than maybe the creation of breast cancer awareness month or something
I agree that the government rules by fear and no one is happy... BUT as some people have said in other fishbowls you sort of need fear in order to have an effective and efficient government... Is this true?
Jacob- Then do you think that this could be like a second WWII?
Brian: That’s true, but you are still contributing something to society, no matter how bad that something is.
Jacob - Do you think that history will repeat itself FOREVER? Or will people and their ways eventually change too much to let it repeat.
Jacob, does it history really repeat itself or does human nature jusst repeat itself, and lead to actions?
Guys is everything undefinable and broad? believe it or not there are things that are definable no matter how philosophically you are.
Ziven- Money doesn't seem to be a huge thing in this book though. Maybe the government doesn't collect taxes and has not income coming from the people.
Ziven- Yes, atomic weapons are powerful. No one said they don't kill a lot of people. But why wouldn't they just kill some people? What would be the basis for NOT killing in this society?
Trey - For example?
Kristen: You are contributing, but you might not be helping. Sometimes you can destroy things to help. If you destroyed crime the world could be a better placce.
Kailyn- History is all caused by human nature. So it is a mix. History repeats BECAUSE of human nature.
Brooke: I suppose it depends on what you are destroying, but even if you are getting rid of things that are bad you are destroying a piece of history.
In modern times think about how at the start of the Iraq war our goevrnment said that going against the war was evil and unamerican... Think about how we treated others who went against the war such as the French... We totally disowned them...
Kelsey- I don't think that 911 got a bigger reaction because it happened all at once, and it affected alot of people, it scared them because they thought that we would all get killed.
this "model" of society has been made so many times in the fact that they have ruled by fear. nazis, chinese dynasties, french revolution, rome, americas independence, the red scare, and the aztecs all wer ruled by fear. people are using the same political tactics since the birth of civilization.
Bridget, why? Can't some routine, some normalcy be good. Must we always have change?
Katie- I think history is progressive. It repeats, but changes each time. It evolves.
Exactly, if everyone means nothing and all they do is watch Tv, why not kill some people? they seem worthless
Trey- yes objects are definible but what about ideas? Can you define ideas or emotions or things that are more abstract?
Kristen- How can you determine what is bad and should be distroied?
Katie- That made me think of my banned book. It was about ancient people and their customs, and it was a little bit scary how close it was to our society still. Human nature, according to this book, has not changed much over time.
Bridget - What is the governments primary source of income if they do not collect taxes?
Brian: If you destroyed crime, then you would be destroying the police because taking care of crime is their job. If you think about it, if you destroy one thing it starts a chain reaction and destroying more things that are not bad.
Why is fear so powerful?
brooke- yes this totally could be like another ww2 because if you think about it they were both ended in dropping bombs.
Laptops. They're definable. There are certain elements that must be included in a an object for it to be included a laptop
Clarisse opened his eyes, and he took it and ran with it.
Trey: The people might not be worthless to a government. All they have to do is tell them that someone likes books and they can get them to do anything. They are almost drones.
Brooke: You really can’t. An atomic bomb may be seen as bad to some people, but also a great achievement to the people who created it. So I don’t think that you can actually determine something is wrong because it’s very likely that someone has the opposite opinion.
I thought there was an interesting comment about Grangers Grandpa, that people are loved for their actions not for their face or their name.
Kailyn- Fear is powerful for the same reason that bribery is powerful. People want something. But fear tends to be more powerful because no one wants to lose something they had, whereas, with bribery, if they don't succeed, they are loosing something they didn't have, so it doesn't affect them as much.
Ziven- Maybe the government doesn't need income. Maybe, they control all money and give out a small some to the people, but keep the rest. So, instead of giving money to the people and taking it back in taxes, they just give less and keep more. So, if they kill people then they simply have less that they must give out, and therefore more that they get to keep.
Exactly Inner Circle. Books are always viewed as such a great think. Sometimes they are the exact opposite. And in Tv really that evil. No not at all.
Ziven- who is the government really though? an attractive man can have many ways of making money, who is the politicians and people backing him iup? or is he just an elected figurehead. Kind of like the queen of england. She doesn't have very much political power?
katie- yes history will repeat itself until some big idea comes around and is there forever. but that is so doubtful and that it qould be sucessful so if human ways change then yes history will change but other wise, no
Jacob- Then if you think that this is like another WWII, then would the books be like the Jews? I mean, they were both burned to be distroied...
Kristen: In the book firefighter's jobs were taken because all houses were fire proof. They found a new job for them. Their job could be making sure crime never returns.
Kailyn - Fear is powerful because if someting important to you is being threatened, you are scared to lose it so you will do pretty much anything someone says to keep it safe or get it back. Being scared is obviously a bad feeling so some people will do anything they are told when they are scared. It's the ones that challenge the system that are strong enough to stand up for what they want no matter how much fear they are feeling.
Trey, but laptops is a word, a word that we created, representing an object that we created, are they really definable?
I agree that human nature constantly causes us to do things that may seem to be beyond us considering all that we accompolished... Humans crave power, a feeling of belonging, a since of order, entertainment, the knowledge that they are right and that others are wrong and the satisfaction of being forgiven for wrongdoings which has caused most of the events of human history... This is why history repeats... Also world geography and science stays the same which is why history repeats. For example the geographical shape of Europe has caused much of the conflict in Europes history and may have led Europeans to dominate the world according to some theorists...
Everyone- This is kind of a follow-up question to Kailyn's. What circumstances can make ruling by fear unsuccessful, like in Montag's case. He used to be afraid, and then he stopped caring. What drives people to stop caring?
Kailyn- I certainly think some normalcy is good. Maybe they are not saying to always challenge the normal, but rather to always THINK about the normal, and decide "which way you want to write"
Brian- What kind of crime? Because people kill eachother and the don't get in trouble.
Bridget - If the government doesn't gain money then whats to stop the people from becoming richer than the government and therefor more powerful.
kaitlyn- history is reflected on human actions so as long as human actions stay the same (refer to my comment to katie) history will forever repeat itself
Brian: If that became their new job, wouldn’t you be creating a situation such as 451? I don’t think that the police would be very happy about having a completely new job because most of them love what they do. Do you really think that our world would be better without crime?
Katie-The way history happens (such as the weapons that are used in battle) changes as a result of lessons learned from past experience... But the factors that drive and motivate people never really has... People have been fighting over religion forever and this is just a manefestation of the human need to be accepted and loved and understand the purpose of life and what comes after...
Mirrors are supposedly you, but different. An example is that when you lift your right hand, the reflection lifts its left hand.
Caroline- I think that fear no longer worked not because Montag stopped caring, but because he cared strongly about the wrong thing. He cared more for the future of the country, the future with books and thought, than he did about his own future. Fear stops working when people find something stronger to care about.
Jacob, I think that we have alot to learn about ourselves from history, but I am not sure if it always repeats itself.
What is the significance of 451? What is it about that number that would make Bradbury put it in the title?
Bridget- But what made him stop caring about himself?
Why do we always see government as evil? Why is white always a representation of good. Whats the deal with all these representations.
brooke- you nailed it right on the head. Books are exactly like jews. Nazis saw jews as people th(problems) to europe. Books would bring up questions and problems in the books society.
caroline - i think that they realize that what they need to do to make society better is way more important than what they are fearful of. Even if it means they die, they know that if they do what they need to do then the future will be so much better for everyone else, all because of them going against the ruler of fear.
Jordan- aren't mirrors the opposite of yourself though? your reflection i mean.
Ziven- Because the government does gain money, but not back from the people. Essentially in our world, all money comes from the government. Our government prints it, gives us say $10, and we give them $5 back. In their world, maybe government simply gives them $5 and keeps the other $5. And when somebody dies, they simply keep the whole $10.
Brooke- If I am not mistaken, 451 degrees farenheit is the temperature paper burns at. Like burning the books
Brooke- thats burning temperature.
Caroline- It is not that he stopped caring about himself, he started caring MORE about the world.
I think that Montag knows things will get better, but Mildred isn't there for the change, and she is one of the ones who really need it.
Kristen: It wouldn't be a whole new job it would still be there way to protect society. I think if you love your job you would do different things to accomplish what you did before. Why wouldn't the world be better without crime?
Bridget- Ok, I get that, but WHY?
One of the reasons i sort of liked LOTF is because it showed why we need government. Most times it is necessary. Irritating yes and unfair yes but necessary also.
kailyn- people look at history as just mindless facts when people should look at it as a chance to look at mistakes in history and try their very best to never ever do that again. but unfortunately that will never happen in this day and age.
Trey-Government is percieved as evil because the very essence of government is to provide control and structure which can easily be abused and go out of countrol espeacially when human nature comes into play...I dont know if this is what you mean but I think white is used to represent good because the world is run by white people who want to feel good about themselves. Example: The characterization of Jesus as pale white when he most likely would have been black...
Jacob, how are people a thing, I disagree very strongly. People of Jewish heritage are not like books, but rather books are like the people that write them, with no face or bias.
Jacob- So, books are Jews, and then the firemen are Nazis, then who or what is Hitler?
Brooke, Farenheit 451 is the temperature at which books burn.
The Inner circle is running slow today - maybe we can send some questions in that we have?
Caroline- I guess I'd say that self sacrafice was there all along. He simply didn't think about it until Clarisse. He began to think about the future and about a world with a total lost of emotion and thought. Who knows why that thought was more powerful, but as he began the think, he believed that his life was less important than the future of their nation.
Kailyn- Of course books can be biased. That, according to Beatty, is why they started burning them in the first place. They offend people. They make them think.
Trey- a laptop is definible. If I have a laptop and give it to you it is still the same. The same thing can not be said of happiness. If I make you happy then it might mean something different to you. The sme things might not be defined as something happy to you.
How could we overthrow the government... They own all the power and information not to mention all the guns and nukes... This is not 1774 anymore...Also it is nearly impossible to amend the constitution... I would love to overthrow much of the government but I never could...
Kailyn- We were talking about how the books are like the Jews in WWII because they were both thought to be bad and were burned to be distroied and some people tried to hide them to save them.
Trey: Do you think that emotions are definable then?
Jacob, Why so negative?Why can't people learn from their mistakes? If not today then never. But I think that that takes effort, from the individual.
Kelsey-Happiness is definable. It is anything that makes you feel good and content... What makes someone happy is not definable...
Everyone- We compare this a lot to the holocaust and WWII and Hitler. One major difference though. WWII was started by Hitler. Hitler began the movement and thought of the people and initiated the war itself. In F451, the people chose all together that they simply didn't need books anymore.
brooke- hitler would be either the person playing god or possibly beatty. any one thats high up but idont nessisarily think that the book says there is a "hitler" i think its just implied.
Saying that Jews are like books is ridiculous. Do Jews retain knowledge like books? You can't compare a ethnic group to inanimate objects.
Brian: I think that their jobs wouldn’t be similar at all. If crime didn’t exist, how would they prevent it? Would we really need all the policemen that we have now? In 451 there are nowhere near as many firefighters as we have now, because they are only needed to destroy things. Also, I think that if we didn’t have crime our world wouldn’t be balanced. So I do not think that the world would better without crime.
Paul- Now the government, and the rest of the nation that is reading our blog is putting you on a list of suspected terrorists for saying you want to overthrow the government
Trey, does it matter what kind of government we have? As long as we have a government, are we ok? what if we had a monarchy, Communist, odr dictatorship?
Brook, I just dont see this book as being so literal.
Paul thats why we must keep our right to bear arms. Horrible things are done with guns but without them we are defenseless. Notice in 451 they dont have any.
This story is told from Montag's perspective. How would the book be different if it was from Beatty's perspective? I kind of am interested in Faber's perspecive too.
Why do we compare everything to the holocaust and Hitler? There are plenty of other examples of things like this in the world
Kailyn: people can learn from their mistakes but if they don't notice that they made a mistake then how would they learn from it?
They they are candid then it really dosn't matter. They need to listen to the people. If they dont then we have a problem.
Kailyn-People dont learn from the mistakes because their are natural human qualities (such as greed) that are motivating them to repeat history... That said I think we have learned from our mistakes just not as much as we should be...
Caroline- We compare it to Hitler and WWII because it is what we know most about I think. We have learned about it and while some of these things are happening right now, it is hard to talk about because it is still occuring. It is easier to compare to something that we know the outcome of.
Alison, that is true, but if it is a true mistake aren't there consequences?
bridget- HOw do you know that the people chose to not have books? Do you think that it's like the proabition (I probable spelled that wrong) law? That eventough alcohol was illegal to buy and transport, people did it anyway? People have books anyway?
kailyn- people are stupid and dont want to learn. some people will learn but in order to make it so history doesnt repeat itself, everyone would have to be able to learn from their mistakes.
Caroline-Hitler is the biggest and most memorable example of this idea happening... Also Hitler makes the US look like the good guy which makes people feel good...
Caroline B-You posed a question towards the end of the discussion asking why we are constantly making connections back to Hitler/Nazism. I was speaking with a friend I worked with on Capitol Hill two summers ago and the same situation arose. Suddenly our conversation discussing Obama turned into a discussion on Hitler. My friend said that in his political science class this year, his professor told him the the longer a conversation goes on, the odds of on person bringing upHitler/Nazism gets closer and closer to 1. Interesting, huh?
Olivia,But why is that? Are we just so intrigued by the horror and lawlessness that was actually inflicted, or is it something else?In a way that concept is sad. Hitler, not Washington, Hitler, not Susan B. Anthony, Hitler, not Osama BinLadin.
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