Monday, November 3, 2008

Fahrenheit 451 136-end fishbowl period 2

248 comments:

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TristanL said...
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TristanL said...

~ EVERYONE ~

What book or work would you be if you were in this group of people who memorized certain works? Can you back up this thought?

stellab2012 said...

In the movie Silent Hill, a woman says "burn anything you're afraid of; Burn anything you can't control."
What does this mean to you in terms of 451?

Maxe2012 said...

Stella- it means to me that we should just get rid of anything and everything who causes a problem and isn't on your side.

TristanL said...

Stella ~
I think this means that the people in the society of F451 are actually afraid of books. It is said in the book that this is because they create conflict, but does this mean that the people are afraid of learning?!

robertc2012 said...
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ericak2012 said...

Stella~
It's like saying get rid of everything that you don't like...get rid of everything that makes you unhappy...

Maxe2012 said...

Tristan- I don't think that the people are afraid of learning. They just don't know what it is. I think that the government is afraid of them learning because the people might realize what a terrible society they live in.

ericak2012 said...

Robert-
We get it, you have done your reading and more! Please stop trying to discuss things that not everyone has read, like the afterword.

PeterH2012 said...

Stella- Fire destroys everything, and lights up what was dark before.

jays2012 said...

Stella- If you remember, when Montag burns Beatty, he remembers Beatty saying burn anything that is in the way or a problem. I don't remember the exact quote but he uses that against Beatty. Beatty was a problem to Montag and so he burned him. People in these days are afraid of what can happen with knowledge.

BernardoT2012 said...

Tristan-I wouldn't be anything because I don't posses the kind of memory it takes to remember so much as a speech. But I would carry on my martial arts system because I study that every day. China is a great example of lost knowledge by censoring.

alexandriab2012 said...

Tristan -
I do think that they're afraid of learning because why would you want to change the easy life that they live. You don't really work, so why change, and untill change has occurs then notice new will happen.

AustinW2012 said...

Max-
don't the people have to have liked the society for it to have become the way it is in a democratic society? At least a majority had to support it at some time. It then presented the government a chance to get people to not think.

ashleys2012 said...

Stella-

One of my favorite quotes is "Don't write books about dogs because you'll insult the cat lovers. Don't write books about cats because you'll insult dog lovers." This is like a lose lose situation. No one can win and get what they want!

Maxe2012 said...

Alex- they only think they don't want change but they don't know the other side of the argument. Do they really know what they want?

TristanL said...

Max ~
But it isn't really the government who got rid of the books. There was some truth in what Beatty said. I believe that the people got rid of the books, and in an earlier comment I posted, that the government got pulled with the people. The government couldn't just say "no books or we'll burn you away", the people would rebel. If the government truly didn't want books and they're not just with the status quo, then they stirred trouble within the people. Otherwise, I think it was all the people.

chelseac2012 said...

Leslieh brought up a good question in the inner circle: will the burning, the society they have, ever come back?

alexandriab2012 said...

EVERYONE!!!!
Okay do you think that Guy will ever find love again? And if he does will it be true love? And for him would it be better to find love and lose it (just like with Mildred) or to never experince it?

jays2012 said...

Ashley- That is why they burn all the books. One person doesn't agree and then there is chaos.

ericak2012 said...

Max and Alex-
Max brought up the question 'Do they know what they really want?' And they could know, but they also in a way don't because of their society and government.

KyleL2012 said...

Chelsea-Im not entirely sure, they have an ooportunity to recreate, and it seemed no one really liked the society of fear, so I think that they might try and create something new

BernardoT2012 said...

Austin- some people did like the system, like Beatty. That doesn't mean people are happy. It's easy not to think, but it makes everything bland and meaningless. What they think may make them uncomfortable, but it gives life texture like Faber said.

katieh2012 said...

In this section, when Montag is with the men outisde of town, they sit and watch the "chase" and see "Montag" get caught. the overnment just lets the actual criminal get away so the chase can end. What is this saying about the governmant in this society?

robertc2012 said...

When Montag gets out of the river, he mentions sleeping in a barn. There are several parts there that he is either dreaming or actually happen, and several mentions of Clarrise too. What is the meaning behind this? Does this actually occur?

AllisonM2012 said...

Stella~ I think that the government felt that they couldn't control the people. Although our government is supposed to be run by the people, when someone is in charge they do not want to give up that power to others. Those people in power felt that they couldn’t control the people when they had books and knowledge so burning the books was a way to control the people.

Maxe2012 said...

Austin- No. the government could have changed and changed back. However, the citizens elect a person and the person can do whatever he or she wants to do. They can go to war even if the people don't support it. They can ruin knowledge and turn people into thoughtless shells it's really up to the president and all it takes is one bad president with a good speech to put congress on his side and he can ruin everything.

ashleys2012 said...

On page 163, Granger is talking about the Pheonix being reborn. Are they planning to change everything and start new? What do you think the new society would be like if The Harvard Degrees and Monag were in control?

austin d 2012 said...

Now that Montag leaves the system, he can no longer challenge the system because he's on the outside looking in. In recent times in history people who are on the outside struggle to challenge and change things.(AKA IRAQ) Do you think Montag can do more on the outside of society then he did on the inside? Tell what you think can be done.

Laurao said...

What does everyone think about the mirror factory? Is it just reflection or is it something more?

ericak2012 said...

Alex-
"It is better have experienced love and no longer have it then to never have loved at all.' But did Guy honestly love Mildred? If they were truely in love, would it have gone downhill so quickly?

PeterH2012 said...

Chelsea- I think it was john that said that the pheonix burned every 450 years, so does that mean that the book is posing the question, What happens in the 451st year?

AustinW2012 said...

Max- Even if they don't know the other side they still back their views even if it's the only one they know. They will support it because they know no other side but that doesn't mean they want to know the other side.

bayleyk2012 said...

Chelsea-

I hope not. I think that montag and the Harvard degrees will help build up society and make it better.

chelseac2012 said...

Alex -
Maybe he will, maybe he won't. If he finds love, will it every really be true love? I don't think he'll ever find it, not true love at least.

ericak2012 said...

Laura-
Good point. What could the mirror factory represent?

KyleL2012 said...

Alex-I can't say for sure, but i guess you could say it's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

robertc2012 said...

Chelsea- the burning isn't even gone yet. Only one city has been destroyed, not the rest of the country. So the burning is still around.

jays2012 said...

Alex- Montag can choose if he wants to have love or not. He can choose anything that he wants because it's his own life. But, he might not want to experience it again. I think he had loved Millie because in the end, he remembered where they met. He remembered things that he wouldn't of remembered.

BernardoT2012 said...

Alexandria- Did Guy ever truly feel love though? True it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all, but did he ever truly love Mildred or was she a complete stranger to him?

johnc2012 said...

Alex-

The real question I think is if he is looking for love again. I mean, he probably is going to have a lot going on, rebuilding soceity and all, without looking for love

hannahg2012 said...

Katie- I would say the government is just lazy. They just wan to keep the peace. The government doesn't care who pays the price for a crime, just as long as someone does.

KyleL2012 said...
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KyleL2012 said...

Erica-Mirrors usually symbolize looking into one's self and seeing what they have done. the factory probably means many mirrors, many people can see what they have done.

ashleys2012 said...

Katie-

Their society is trying to please everyone even if it means setting up a fake arrest. Their society would rather make every one "happy" and give them what they want than following the law and doing the right thing. Montag's scenario defiently wasn't the only case of this, it has happened before with other criminals. Their society chooses happiness over safety and going through with the law.

leslieh2012 said...

laura-
it is a mirror FACTORY, not just a mirror. it MAKES tools for reflection.

Maxe2012 said...

Austin- Do you really think these people can think they take what is given to them and if someone decides that the people should know the other side, it isn't up to the people to say no. These people don't know what they want.

AustinW2012 said...

Max- Even if the president convinces congress to support him then that is the people supporting him because they are the elected officials of the people and if they agree with the president then he is doing what they want even if he convinced them.

BernardoT2012 said...

Everyone-
What are mirrors exactly? What do they do?

TristanL said...

Bernardo ~
Truly? Maybe throughout the years you could build up an ability to be able to remember a book by heart. Right now, Montag doesn't quite recall the Book of Ecclesiastes, but the others say that in time he will remember everything about it.

I think I'd be an encyclopedia of music, because music is my life. I listen to it 90% of the time, whether I'm walking somewhere, chatting with a friend, going homework, writing a GIANT report, anything. Music music music.

stephaniel2012 said...

Stella-
I know this is a bit delayed, but that quote intrigues me. Anything really can be 'uncontrollable'. Something can always change even when people think they have it 'all under control'. Because nobody can predict anything, we will never be able to be sure that any given thing is under control. So... with that veiw, wouldn't it be like burning everything? Burning everything in your path?

stellab2012 said...

Allison-
So you think that the people of the government were more afraid of the people in society in general, or the knowledge of those people?

AllisonM2012 said...

Katie~ I think that it shows that they are trying to make the people happy. It says in the book that they have to end the show quick or people will lose interest quickly if they searched the river. So, if the government wants to keep their power, they must make masses happy in order to maintain the people’s loyalty.

ericak2012 said...

Kyle-
Many mirrors for many people or to see each person in different ways with each mirror?

bayleyk2012 said...

Everyone-

Granger means farmer.

chelseac2012 said...

Robert -
Yes, it's still around but there's a plan to stop it. If it ends up stopping, it may or may not come back.

Peter -
That's a good question... I think the book may be looking into what happens the 451st year, whether Bradbury knew it or not when he wrote the book.

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
How long do you think it will be till books are finally excepted again?

katieh2012 said...

Alex- Montag thought he was in love but because of Clarisse he realized that he had never really felt love. So I think that he is going to find love for the first time later on, but it may not be with a person. Maybe with knowledge...

austin d 2012 said...

Alex- I dont think Montag will ever find a standing relationship again because of his situation. It would be very difficult.

jays2012 said...

Bernardo- In the beginning when he met Millie, he must of felt true love. Because in the end, he remembered where they met.

Laurao said...

Leslie-

That is a good point. The mirror factory will be there for a long time. This will show later generations an example of not to go back to this kind of society.

ericak2012 said...

Alex and Max-
How long until they are accepted and WHY are they accepted again?

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
how can they want change if all they know is doing the same thing over and over again.

bayleyk2012 said...

Bernardo-

Mirrors show you what is on the outside they reflect what is on the outside.

bayleyk2012 said...

Bernardo-

Mirrors show you what is on the outside they reflect what is on the outside.

ashleys2012 said...

Everyone talking about mirrors-

On page 33 Montag observes that all the firemen are exactly the same. They all ave the same appearances and expressions. None of them are unique at all! In the end of the novel, Montag and the Harvard Degrees are talking about building a mirror factory. Mirrors allow you to see who you really are. They are building a mirror factory to make their new society see who they really are and what makes them unique and different.

leslieh2012 said...

tristin-
i have a shelf of books with the covers falling off. I've read them so many times, there is an indentation in the pages where my thumb goes. If i hear a line from one of those books, i can usually ranble on with the next chapter. It's not really something i thought about memorizing. It just happened.

stephaniel2012 said...

Bernardo-
Mirrors are literally surfaces that reflect any object that is in veiw of the surface.

stellab2012 said...

Stephanie-
That makes sense, but it makes me wonder how we would ever be able to get anywhere. Is that what you were getting at?

katieh2012 said...

Hannah and Ashley-
So the government is trying to make the people happy now, but what happens later? Does the government realize that Montag still poses a threat? and if so what do you think they're going to do about it?

ericak2012 said...

Alex-
Is that what they know or is it just routine? Or do they do it because of what could happen if they showed that they could be pretending that that is all they know?

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica-
Tey didn't truely love each other, but maybe with this new love it will remind him of what he could have had. So which is better in youor opinnion? Knowing or always hoping/ wishing for?

BernardoT2012 said...

Ashley- They want to entertain their audience and they know they can only hold their audience for so long. Everything must be finished nicely. Everything needs that snap ending that concludes everything so no one has to worry about, and no one has to think about it.

KyleL2012 said...

Bernardo and Erica-The mirrors are reflective tools, and I think that there being many mirrors means for a larger reflection in society. there being many more reflections in one person could also be symbolized by the factory.

Maxe2012 said...

Alex- I think it will take a long time. I think that a revolutionary to get books accepted. They would have to have major skills to hide thousands of book-lovers and an organization preparing to overthrow the government. Another possibility is a soldier liking books and taking the violent path to get them accepted. Either way, it would take forever.

AllisonM2012 said...

Stella~ I think that the government was definitely afraid of the knowledge that the people would have because they only suppress the people with knowledge. The houses that are burned are only those with books.

ericak2012 said...

Alex-
Knowing. But they didn't know.

BernardoT2012 said...

Stephanie- Yes they reflect, but what do they reflect of the object in their view?

TristanL said...

Austin ~
You've made a good point about Montag 'on the inside looking in'. I think that Montag can wait. Then, once the time is right (who knows when?) he can re-enter society and possibly help rebuild a world of learning, books, opinion.

PeterH2012 said...

chelsea- I do think that bradbury planned this book out amazingly! All of the meanings of the words, and all of the symbolism couldnt just be a coincidence.

katieh2012 said...

Everyone-
Baley said that granger means farmer. What significance does this have? I think it means that he "plants" knowledge and harvests it in society.

stephaniel2012 said...

Leslie & Tristan-
People memorize without meaning to. If we couldn't memorize, we wouldn't have memory. Isn't that what memorizing is? Storing any given memory?

ashleys2012 said...

Katie-

This is an interesting point. The government is just like the society. They too want to forget and move on. As long as society doesn't have to worry about Montag because he is "gone", they don't have to worry either.

Laurao said...

Bayley and Bernardo-

The inside is what matters. But the mirror factory will show the outside which will make others look at themselves on the inside as well.

KyleL2012 said...

Most people-With the talk of mirrors, most people say that mirrors only show the outside but they also show the inside, like how people can tell about a person from his actions and appearance, mirrors allow the person to do that to himself.

alexandriab2012 said...

Jay-
Good point, I think that he liked her (not loved but liked, maybe just as a friend). So maybe this new love will make him sad about what he couls have had.

leslieh2012 said...

stephanie-
there is a difference between remembering and memorizing

AustinW2012 said...

I think books could be accepted quickly if people are willing to accept them. If they become curious about books then they could be accepted again quickly. If they continue to fear them then it will take a long time.

stephaniel2012 said...

Stella-
Exactly, especially in this society, if they burned everything that they couldn't control, they would be burning progress itself, because there's nothing left that they could control.

hannahg2012 said...

Katie- I think the government still sees Montag as a threat. However I don't think that they will do anything about it. Everyone in the society thinks Montag is dead. If Montag every decided to challenge the system again I don't think the government would know what to do.

katieh2012 said...

Ashley-

So does this kind of give Montag and the Harvard degrees an opportunity to take action?

ericak2012 said...

I have a question about our society. Tristan repeatedly posts, and when he posts you see his name. Everyone has read his posts and yet almost no one spells his name correctly. What could this little thing show about our society? Does our society really not have enough consideration to spell someone's name correctly?

AllisonM2012 said...

Bernardo~ Mirrors reflect what is on the surface but they don’t show us what is on the inside. It is up to the viewer to use the knowledge from the outside reflection and expand on that to infer what is on the inside.

alexandriab2012 said...

Kyle-
Still he'll know what true love is like but he might not find it again. So, then he'll always want that, so what do you think personally, is it better to know and have it taken away or to never experience it?

KyleL2012 said...

Tristan is highliting in his comments the things that are important to people and also what society destroys. I find it very cool, thanks tristan.

nickb2012 said...

katie,
i think is important right now to go through what each name means, faber means father, so hes could be like the father of change, and the one that helps facilitate the change, granger means farmer meaning that he could be the starter of change, he could be the one that has the most change in his mind.

stephaniel2012 said...

Bernardo-
They reflect a mirror copy. it's not an exact copy, but rather, a flipped version of the given object.....

leslieh2012 said...

kyle-
I have spent some time in front of a mirror making funny faces. I accidentally left my camcorder on and got 10 min of me brushing my teeth. I actually watched that. I just wanted to see what the world saw when i did certain things.

mariep2012 said...

Everyone - Do you think that maybe Montag really loved Mildred truly the whole time?

chelseac2012 said...

Peter -
That's really cool to be able to look into a book and see from the writers point of view, the symbolism and everything... I never thought much about it until this year, and a little the years before, that the writers create little bits of symbolism everywhere...

jays2012 said...

Katie- Last fishbowl, Bayley and I discussed how Montag was the seed. And when he met Faber for the first time, Faber planted him. That's when he first started thinking. Then, when Clarisse came along, she watered that plant. And it grew. So now, Granger being the farmer, harvests this plant, and re-plants it. This is what they are doing. They are ready to plant their knowledge in the rest of the people.

stellab2012 said...

Stephanie-
Who's they?

Do you believe that everything happens for a reason?

TristanL said...

Kyle ~
Do mirrors really show the inside? I think that mirrors are pretty much the biggest liars in the world. People who are conceited will see what they want in the mirror, not what they are. People who dislike their lives will see a disgusting thing staring back at them. Then the rest just see themselves, as they are. Mirrors can only give you what you want, and if you're content with yourself, then you'll be content with your reflection.

ashleys2012 said...

I agree with Leslie about there is a difference between memorizing and remembering. You have to put effort into memorizing. Like for a test, you study, you read, you take the time and you think! Remembering is sometimes just subconcious. What did you have for breakfast today? You remember but it is not like you sat at the table and stared at your food and memorized it. You remembered without trying.

alexandriab2012 said...

John-
But sometimes even if you don't look for it it will come looking for you. So, maybe he'll be busy but love will still come looking for him.

katieh2012 said...

Erica-
I think it shows that people aren't always oserving what is right in front of them. We are just looking at the actual question or information, not really caring about who is posing the question.

BernardoT2012 said...

All people following the mirror topic- Everything you have siad is true. Mirrors reflect any objects in view of it's surface.

But, mirrors reflect EVERYTHING of what they see. They don't censor, they don't conceal details. Mirrors show both the good and the bad as they really are. The point of mirror factory is to make sure everyone can see themselves, and everything else, as they really are regardless of whether or not they like what they see.

leslieh2012 said...

marie-
it is really possible. the petty things can build up and get in the way. Plus, there is a difference between loving someone and liking them. You don't have to like someone to love them. I think that there is a MLK jr. quote about that.

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura-

Good point. I think this society is more focused on the outside then the inside.

Montag started caring about the inside more than the outside.

stephaniel2012 said...

Leslie-
I'm actually not sure. Think about it... what does it mean to 'memorize'? If you're memorizing vocab or such, you're trying to force the knowledge to stick in your brain. I think the world 'force' is the underlying difference. If you remember something, then you simply remember it, right?

AllisonM2012 said...

Alex~ I think that it will probably be a very long time. Since the people or society has largely rejected knowledge not just a leader or dictator, it will make it much harder. When someone challenges the system it is much more difficult to overthrow a way of life or an idea than a person.

chelseac2012 said...

Erica -
I noticed that too... and I spelled Leslie's name wrong earlier (sorry!); but it all depends on the person, doesn't it? Some people care while others don't.

ericak2012 said...

Katie-
That's what I'm saying. I mean, all of you know what his name is, all of you have seen how to spell his name correctly but no one does it. Is our society going to become just thinking about what we already know and not caring about it?

KyleL2012 said...

Alex-true, you never appreciate something until it's gone and it makes you feel worse when you have felt love and lost it than to never have felt love. I'm still going to go with better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all because you can at least remember good times and remember the good than wishing you still had it.

TristanL said...

Marie ~
I absolutely do not think that Montag loved Mildred, but that it was mostly a blind thing until Clarisse came along. If Montag had gotten home and seen Mildred with an empty bottle and had never seen or met Clarisse, then I think he would have been saying 'everything will be alright, I'll just call the medics.' But he met Clarisse, and she changed him, and without this 'change' this story wouldn't exist.

PeterH2012 said...

Chelsea- At my old school, we never looked past the surface into what the author really intended. Now that we need to do that to be able to contribute anything of worth to a discussion, it's very important.

johnc2012 said...

Alex

I guess it could happen. It just seems unlikely that love would find him. And, sho is leaft alive is the real question

Here's a question to EVERYONE

Did Montag love Clarisse?

ericak2012 said...

Chelsea-
Yes, but why don't those some people care?

BernardoT2012 said...

Ashley- but do these men who remember their books only memorize everything word for word? Do they only remember what was on the page?

nickb2012 said...

bernardo- i am going to join in here, even if it shos the good and the bad without censorship, it is not a view of a person, or how that person acts.

ashleys2012 said...

Katie-

Yes it does give Montag and the Harvard Degrees an opportunity to try to change things. I have a question though, at the end of the novel, since their society is blown up does that mean their government has been blown up too?

KyleL2012 said...

Bernardo-so does that makes books like mirrors?

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
Do you think that everyone who has book knowelege will cme out so then the books can be written down. But what happens if that person with that book knowlegde dies and he is never able to pass on that information, is that knowlegde just lost.

stephaniel2012 said...

Stella-
They is the society those who stand with the belief that knowledge and books are dangerous.

I do believe that everything happens for a reason, even if we do not know it or cannot find it.

AustinW2012 said...

I think memorizing and remembering are two different paths to the same place. In both you end up being able to recall information. Both mean the same thing one is just generally thought of as putting in effort and one mindless but really they are the same thing.

nickb2012 said...

john,
i was wondering the same thing...

Maxe2012 said...

What is the difference between memorizing and knowing?

katieh2012 said...

Nick- so this sort of shows that even one person can have a major influuence on society by a few simple actions right?

Jay- Thats a really good chain of connections. It really shows a domino effect in the society that caused its downfall.

mariep2012 said...

Tristan - But at the very end of the story, Montag is calling her name and he is hoping that she is alright. How would you explain that?

AllisonM2012 said...

EVERYONE

The book 451 it is a futuristic guess of how society will "change". Does anyone think that that "change" will/could ever occur in our society?

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica- I think that it's just routine. Because it never mentioned a change in the system.

chelseac2012 said...

Erica -
People have their reasons why they care vs. why they don't. Pride, the care for themselves more than others... this list could go on for a while. Some people may have personal reasons, they couldn't get over something and take their anger out on other people - not caring at all about them.

Maxe2012 said...

Alex- Possibly, but when has there been a war without casualties?

ashleys2012 said...

Bernardo-

I think they memorized the books. 99.99% of their society doesn't take the time to comit certian iteams to memory. I think that if their brain retains that information, it means that they worked to retain it.

AustinW2012 said...

Kyle-
mirrors are not like books. Books have an opinion, mirrors just show everything how it is. Mirrors give you the raw information, books interpret it.

jays2012 said...

John- Montag loved Clarisse. That is why it impacted him so much when she was gone. He didn't know her for very long, but in that short time, she changed his life. From the first time with the Dandelion, it didn't rub off on him. But if she was able to ask him again, and she wasn't dead, I think it would rub off of him.

nickb2012 said...

katie,
exactly

KyleL2012 said...

John-as creepy as a 40-year old loving a 17-year old sounds, it seems a little more like that he liked her ideas and her thinking pattern. Montag i wouldn't say loved clairisse but was fond of her thinking pattern and she made him think.

stellab2012 said...

Marie-
I don't think he ever really did, it could have just been like a mind game through society.
Do you?

katieh2012 said...

Erica-

I agree. It kind of shows that we have become so caught up in the knowledge now that we are oblivious to everyone around us. So maybe we need to slow down and observe rather than consume knowledge constantly.

chelseac2012 said...

Max -
Memorizing vs. knowing... Knowing, you have to apply it. You really think about something and put time into it. In knowing, you care more rather than just putting it in your mind.

leslieh2012 said...

Stephanie-
i think remembering involves your brain more. You have to think about things to remember them. The definition of to memeorize is to learn by heart. When i can spout books and poetry, it doesn't even filter through my brain. I feel like it flows from the heart.

KyleL2012 said...

Max-what about the cold war?

TristanL said...

Marie ~
Montag has lived with Mildred for a very long time, she has become a part of his life. He cares for her, but he doesn't exactly 'love' her.

~ EVERYONE ~

What is love?

Laurao said...

Bayley-

Montag has changed because of Clarisse. He now does not care about his outer appearance. It is now an inward reflection. Montag will not be ignorant but will be knowledge.

stephaniel2012 said...

Ashley- I agree with you on your veiw of the difference between memorizing and remembering. But despite the difference of the forced memory and the memories that are just formed, is the conscious mindset. And I don't even know why we got into this discussion, so even though I want to go on about something that is substantial and groundbreaking, I can't remember what it was... (ha ha! Now THAT is a bad pun for you)

ericak2012 said...

I am going to once again twist Smitty's words. She just said 'Why does it matter? Why should we care?' when someone on the inner circle brought up a point. I mean she rejected another student's ideas. Why is this going to not help our society in not becoming like the 451 society?

nickb2012 said...

austin-
then do mirrors make us think more than books do, if its raw material, then we wouldn't understand it, right? I think that instead, it is HOW we interpret what is in the mirror.

AllisonM2012 said...

John~ I don't think that he did. Like many people said he loved the idea of Clarisse. I think that he also felt that he had found someone that he could deeply connect to and I don't think that he had ever felt that feeling before.

jays2012 said...

Kyle- Montag was only 30 years old by the way. And I do think he loved her. She changed his life.

leslieh2012 said...

Does anybody want to argue my side that memorizing is from the heart and knowing is from the head?

johnc2012 said...

Jay,

But if you had met a girl like two weeks ago and then she died, could you really fall in love that fast and then if she died, how could you be as affected as Montag was? You barely know who they are?

AustinW2012 said...

Kyle-
people were killed in the cold war. Just not on the front line. People were killed in fear that others would kill them first.

ashleys2012 said...

Bernardo-

Yes! Mirrors show both good and bad sides of everything! Is this why their society didn't have them before? So their society doesn't see their blemishes. They don't even know their blemishes are there.

ericak2012 said...

Leslie-
I kind of agree with you, but in the reversed way.

nickb2012 said...

erica, she's just going against the flow, she's making us think more instead of taking that away

bayleyk2012 said...

Erica- because we read something like that. And it makes us scared so we wont become that way.

hannahg2012 said...

Allison- I think "change" could occur in our society. I don't think our society will get to the extremes of the society in 451. But this change could occur. Do you think that the people in our society will be willing to change.

BernardoT2012 said...

Kyle and Nick- Yes, books are a form of mirrors, but I have to stress that it's not books.
The thing that gives thought and knowledge isn't paper with a binding, it's observing life, and we use books to keep from forgetting what others have observed and thought. Books show what life looks like for real, which is what a mirror does.

Nick, Many philosophers have said that a man is defined by what he does. The mirrors show what the people who look at them are. Granger isn't talking about literal mirrors, he wants to make a factory that gives people something to look into and see who they are and what their lives really are right now.

mariep2012 said...

Stella - In the inner circle, we thought that maybe after he met Clarisse, she showed him that maybe you could love her differently, if you see what I mean.

leslieh2012 said...

Why do people memorize verse? Because it speaks to them. It pulls at something beyond their head.

jays2012 said...

Austin- People were killed in every single war.

austin d 2012 said...

Memorizing takes effort and effort is from the heart, knowing takes the head.

chelseac2012 said...

Tristan -
Love... it has a meaning on different levels; there are people who really care for others, someone may really enjoy anothers' company, or a book or a movie.
Love: "A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness."

alexandriab2012 said...

John-
Don't you think that it's possible for more than one "Love of your life." So maybe "she" still exists.
I think that he did love Clarisse. He always thinks about her, and it seems like she was an obsession for him.

leslieh2012 said...

jon-
do you believe in love at first sight?
if that's a little hard to relate, haven't you ever seen someone, and been like "he looks like my kind of person. lets be friends". (forgive the cornyness).

stellab2012 said...

Marie-
Like a love of friendship? That woulud make more sense.

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura-

connecting to our conversation. Montag is knowing instead of memorizing. He is also learning a new way to think. One of the points he made was that there was no "Dentist commercial" sorry I can't remember the actual name. He could now think for himself and dive deeper into the words.

mariep2012 said...

Tristan - What does love mean to you, not just what the dictionary says?

nickb2012 said...

bernardo,
thats true

jays2012 said...

So is MEMORIZING a bad thing?

ashleys2012 said...

I agree with Chelsea. I believe there are two types of love. There is love on the scale of a close companion and dear friend such as your child or friend or family. And there is the affectionate scale of love such as husband and wife. I believe Montag did love Clarisse but more as a daughter.

BernardoT2012 said...

Ashley- Thank You!
That's the point of the mirrors.
In the society Montag lived in (past tense) people didn't look at what they really "looked" like. They didn't realize that their lives were flat bland, and untextured faces. Like empty eyed dolls.
They didn't want to look in a mirror because they didn't want to see themselves. They only liked to imagine that they looked beautiful and never looked to make sure.

TristanL said...

Leslie ~
I think you have it a bit backwards. I think when you know something, truly know it and understand it, that it is within your heart. When you love someone, you tell them 'from the heart', because for some reason some guy says that hearts give you feelings, and they're not just there to pump blood. So I'm going to stick with that. When you know that you love someone, then it 'comes from the heart'. When you just memorize something, you store it in that poofy and wrinkly pink brain of yours that is smooshed into your skull. The brain is for storing, the heart is for knowing.

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
Let's see...never. So maybe she is dead but (trying to be possitive)she's still alive.

KyleL2012 said...

Jay-What is love then? (bum bum bumbumbadah bum bum.......)

stephaniel2012 said...

Leslie-
Ah, touche.
Well, I guess you'd have to flip my definitions. But, I don't trust the dictionary all of the time. I mean, what is it? It's a book of words written by other people as their definition of it. Even though there cannot be skeptism over the meaning of 'the' or 'it', some definitions of words are open. 'Remember' is a phrase that has been used a number of time in various places, as slogans for societies or such. But why would they say: Force yourself to make this a memory. They don't say: 'memorize...'. It's remember, because remember in my opinion is a more psronal, and it's more sentimental. It's making memories that you shouldn't or won't forget. Memorizing, I most often put with school. Memorize this, memorize that. Why would memorizing in school bring sentimental value?? The dictionary is not always right. It's just more opinions. No definition is concrete.

ericak2012 said...

Jay-
No. Memorizing isn't a bad thing. When it's something that you remember...not for any specific words or something like that, but when you remember something about a person or a time or a memory then that's like knowing about it, in that case.

mariep2012 said...

Stella - I would say friendship is a good way of explaining it. He has spent a long time with her and he has gotten connected to her without even realizing it. The emotions that he has hid away his whole life had been connected to Mildred without him even knowing it.

nickb2012 said...

kyle,
sorry, but this is probably the stupidest, most general question you could ever ask. there's no way to truely define love.

ericak2012 said...

Kyle-
Didn't Tristan already ask that and wasn't there already answers?

jays2012 said...

John- Montag spent a good amount of his time with her while she was there. Sometimes there are people that just impact your life in such a different way.

KyleL2012 said...

Marie-Have you noticed in cartoons and stuff when a computer tries to define love, it explodes? I think there is no definition for love, it's impossible.

Laurao said...

Bayley-

Montag remembers the book of Ecclesiastes after the city has been bombed. The stress of Montag is taken away after the society is gone. Montag can then dive deeper into the book and pass the knowledge down.

stephaniel2012 said...

Tristan- So is there a difference between knowing and remembering?

alexandriab2012 said...

EVERYONE!!!!
Okay let's say you died right now. What would you bring from your life, what would you say that you were able to do, and what were you known for. Would you have done everything that your wanted and have you lived every day to the fullest.
Now (let's say your living again)what could you do to live every day to the fullest.
This is going to vary for everyone.

KyleL2012 said...

Nick-That's my point, how can we tell if montag loves Clairisse, how can we tell if he loved mildred, HOW?

ashleys2012 said...

Bernardo-

Maybe their society didn't want mirrors. They didn't want to accept what they looked like. They didn't want to know. If you don't WANT to know you never will. If you don't want to do something you never will. If you don't want to look into a mirror no one can force you. If their society doesn't want mirrors, their society won't have mirrors.

Maxe2012 said...

Can we be forced to learn? If we don't want to learn something will we? School is meant to make us learn but what if we don't want to? Is school an institution to force memorization?

johnc2012 said...

Alex-
Is Obsession love then? I don’t think so.
And Leslie-
But if you see someone walking down the street, that doesn’t mean that you have an intimate connection with them, even if you think that you love them. So yes, you can have love at first sight, but then it isn’t as deep as the one that two people who have been together for a year or are married for 50

ericak2012 said...

Nick-
You're right and wrong. It's not a stupid question (there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers haha) but there is no way to define love. The dictionary tries, but that's a dictionary definition, not a real feeling. Love is a feeling, not a definition.

mariep2012 said...

Kyle - Two things: When have you seen a computer blow up, and a computer has no emotion or feeling so it can't possibly know the definition of it, especially what love means to different people.

jays2012 said...

In songs, people memorize the lyrics. I don't know what half of those things mean when I hear it. Sometimes I look up the words and try to understand what they mean. Also, since I play guitar, I don't really understand what the guitar part means really but I just learn and memorize them and play them back.

AustinW2012 said...

Alex- if I knew I was going to die tomorrow honestly I would not be here. I can not say that I have done everything that I want to but I also cannot say that that my life has been bad or boring. I have done many things that have been fun but there are more things that I would do if I could.

TristanL said...

Marie ~
To me, love is questionable. If you think you love a person, you have to check yourself. What kind of connection do you really have?
~ EVERYONE ~
When people say they love their parents, do they really love their parents? When you say 'I love you' to someone, do you really mean it?

nickb2012 said...

carolyn brought up a good point,

are we learning if we arent challenged?

i think so, i learn really well, because i can be taught any way.

i personally don't have to be challenged to learn.

jays2012 said...

Erica- love has a different meaning to everyone.

leslieh2012 said...

tristin-
maybe i'm just wired different. When i know something, sometimes it pulls from my head. I know that 2+2 is 4, and if anyone tries to reason me out of it, my brain will explode. Some things i know from the heart. Those things are just solid, and un movable.
In the most dificult situations, they might break your soul, but you can't break my heart. I take it you've heard the black parade by my chemical romance?

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura-

I agree I think the fact that he could be hurt for what he was doing almost blocked the information in a way

loganc2012 said...

Nick- Then are you really learning?

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