Other than Barbarism how are they related?
I don't think that there are many connections between 451 and The Lady or the Tiger, mostly because they were written in different times.
Cailyn- i think both stories seem barbaric, like bridget said and that they both leave a lot of the story up to your imagination and make you wonder about what is going on or what is going to happen
I agree with bridget because the future is supposed to be civlized not barbaric and in the book it akways talks about the countless amount of deaths
Do you think Faber would end up telling the firemen on Montag if they came and specifically asked or do you think he is to be trusted
jonathan: why is the future suppost to be civilized?
All of the stories are related by a communist country and that people are suppose to all be equal. So they are related by equality.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it is whatever you think, and that is one of the things that keeps us individual.
Beauty is anything that a viewer finds visually and aesthetically appealing...
Nick- I don't thinkt that the time that the stories were writen in has anything to do with if the stories can be related. The time shouldn't have anything to do with if there are connections between the two stroies.
Inner circle-beauty, just like euphoria is a personal view. everyone has a different take on what is beautiful
Kaeli - that's a good point. he even said himself that he was a coward, so that may end up hurting montag
There is no perfect vision is truly beautiful, because people have different thoughts and perceptions.
How can you know something is beautiful? How do you know that something is ugly?
Jordan- there are also related in that the people in both books challenge the system. In 451 its government and in LOF its Ralph.
Just as a heads up to everyone and to Ms. Smith, I didn't finish the reading so i won't be saying much. Yes I know, I'm a slacker, I'm sorry!
Brooke- one of the connections we found between the Pedestrian and 451 and the other story was when and what they were written about. This book was written about communism and that was a big concern at the time the book was written.
Nick going back to your first comment I think that despite the fact that they are written in different times they can-and do-have many similar themes and express many similar ideas. This is one of the amazing things about literature the fact that it expresses universal ideas that are relavant during all different times and situations...
kristen: i think people percieve that the future is supposed to be civilized because people tend to think that things will always improve and become better. So society tends to be seen as it will become more civilized instead of become barbaric.
Sydney: Thats what I thought. If he readily admits that he is a coward, how strong can he truly be in times when its hard?
has anyone seen any changes in mildred as the story has gone on?
AnnaSophia- I agree with you but a lot of books make your imagination fill in gaps and leave you hanging, it is up to you to finish the book.
There is no true beauty. I guarentee you that there is somebody out there that thinks that angelina jolie is ugly. Now that being said, beauty is all in the eye of the beholder.
Brooke: Thats a really good question. I think your idea of beauty is formed by opinions and what influences peoples ideas. This could be formed by media, and things in the outside world.
Sydney- yes Mildred has changed a little. She originally did not want to have anything to do with books. But now in the story once she has shut off the parlor walls, she is more open to new things.
Brooke: It's all your opinion. People can't tell you what you think is beautiful or ugly.
Nick- So are you saying that a book has to be about the same things to be related? What about Macbeth and LOF? They weren't about the same thing but we found connections with them...They weren't writen in the same time.
Inner Circle- If we have opinions of how beauty is, how does that get started?
I totally agree Kaeli. I think that this will end up hurting him. Kind of foreshadowing perhaps?
annasophia- that is why i tend to like books more than movies. They let you see whatever you want, whereas with movies they MAKE you see something.
Kirsten-People commonly think that the future should be civilized because the human mind and world is constantly involving and new technologies and ideas are constantly bringing us forward. I am not sure though if this is true or not or even if it should be true???? What do you think?
Brady: I see your point but don’t some people, like authors, see the future as becoming uncivilized?
Brooke: My idea of ugly and beautiful varies with your idea of ugly and beautiful. How do you think ideas of what beautiful is on a deeper level than the surface vary?
brooke: i agree with nick that the time that books are written can be reasons why they are similar and have many connections. Books can be based off what is happening in the time that they are written. So if books are similar and are written around the same time period then it makes sense that the time period has something to do with the books being connected.
Alison- I get that nobody can tell you what is ugly or beautiful, but how do you know? How do you decide that something is beautiful or ugly?
I don't know about you guys but I honestly do not like reading these books because they are so terrible in my opinion and I would hope that these situations never occur in our society.
Caroline-thats very true. When you read a book, you picture someone in an exact way in your head, but when you go to the movie, they often ruin what they look like in your mind and it drives you crazy
Do any of you guys think that Mildred is only getting in the way of progress to learn and open up his mind.
I think we need to get off the subject of beauty, I don't think that this is a subject/topic that is going to be very productive in analyzing the book
This novel doesnt have much connections with other books we have read. There are indirect connections, but no true direct connections except LOF in the fact that there are people challenging the system in both.
Jordan- I think beauty got started because people naturally started viewing and experiencing things and they decided they were beautiful. Once speech and writing and language and art were invented they expressed their thoughts on this and even create their own beauty...
Lets get off the idea of ugly, we have said enough about it..
kristen: yes that is true. I meant that the majority if the people see the future as becoming more civilized. However most isn't all.
Sydney - I think that Mildred has taken more interest in Montage but she hasn’t changed that much.
How does the idea of what is beautiful and what is ugly connect to Fahrenheit 451 or other examples in today's society?
Taylor- But without books like this, how can people know what may happen in the future and how could people try to prevent or prepair for it? Don't you think that we read these books for a reason?
Brooke-it is everyones different opinion what is ugly and what is beautiful. Some people only a few people are attractive, and other people almost everyone thinks theyre attractive, but there is always someone who disagrees.
paula: I think that the future should be seen as a possibility. I think that depending on what happens in the future it could turn out either way. I’m just saying that an uncivilized future shouldn’t be overlooked for a civilized one.
Nick - i agree. it is a subtle but significant change in her character. Do you think that it will end up affecting the book?
Kaeli: I think that Faber will become Montag's biggest supporter. I think that together, they have what it takes to challenge the system. I think that from the minute Montag goes to see Faber, there was a trust formed. I don't think the trust will be broken, because they rely so much on eachother.
Kinsey had a good point of equality gone wrong. I think that it is because they are trying to be equal but they aren't really because equality is a thing that cannot be reached because of human nature.
Jacob: Why dont you see any connections?
I feel like people are told, by our culture, what is considered beautiful. So many magazines show skinny girls with long hair and lots of make-up and then girls follow that fashion and think they are beautiful. But then the dove commercials show real women with curves and wrinkles which i think encourages our society that its ok and you are beautiful even if you aren't a rail with hair extentions.
Equality is impossible because every character has some form of competition.
Brooke: it's all your opinion. I agree with jacob that there is no true beauty. Everyone has their own opinion on what is beautiful and what isn't.
Meg-thats what I hope. I would be really sad if Faber ended up betraying Montag, because that just shows that noone can be trusted, Faber seems to be one of the last normal people left in this society
Jacob- I don't think that people in the book challenging the system is a very good connection for all of the books that we've read because in every book, there has to be some for of challenging the system or else people would not want to read them.
Inner Circle- I see a parallelism to 451 and Communism in general. Communism in general wants everyone to be equal, just like 451 wants everyone to be equal, too.
brooke: people only know what is beautiful and what is ugly by the standards of their perspective. It is like the saying "what is one man's trash is another man's treasure." So people only know what is beautiful and what is ugly by their standards.
Sydney- No she does not play a big enough character to directly affect the plot of the book. However, her new attitude may affect Guy, and indirectly affect the story.
Bridget from the inner circle mentioned that no one is smarter than anyone else in this society. Does everyone have the same potential as everyone else to be an "intellectual"?
Taylor-I tottally disagree with you. I think these are really good books that might be a little boring but express incredible ideas that are very relavant to our world. They are not just fluff books... Censorship, materialism, the meaning, purpose and relationship between knowledge and life, the progression of society, how society comes about and develops systems these are all fascinating ideas that are very important to us and shape our world...
Leah: Some people view certain traits and "beautiful". Someone may view another person who gives to charity as beautiful. Also there's the cancer commercial where the woman says that, doctors who make jokes in the kimo-room are beautiful, and women who put up a fight are beautiful. So everyone veiws internal beauty just as differently as external beauty.
Kaeli- Is he one of the "normal people" if the way that the others are is the norm?
Taylor- do you think these books are fiction, non fiction or science fiction? And when you say you hate the books that we read, is it the story or is it the fact that you just think that the book is crappy? Do you think that its possible that the stories we read could happen in reality?
Why would you want to leave?
Kaeli: I totally agree. But on the other hand, I think it would be equally as sad if Montag betrayed Faber, after everything he has learned.
When the inner circle was talking about beauty and how people see different things as beautiful I was connecting that to the idea of a utopia. And at one time it was said that there is no utopia, but it really all depends on perspective, because all things are "beautiful" I guess it just depends on whose eyes are viewing it, and therefore there is a utopia to everyone but there is not only one utopia for everyone.
Leah - i think that yes, to some degree everyone does have the potential to be an intellectual, but its those who go further with that potential and do something with it that causes them to be "intelectuals"
Mildred and Montag don't want to leave because they know that the outside world would be worse because of poverty.
Based on the inner circle's discussion, what is this society partly based on? Hint: Think about home.
If we say that Faber is the normal, how do we know that? Wouldn't he be the strange instead of the normal?
Brady- But my question is that how do you form standards with out someone else telling you what you should think?
Question- i thought that books were banned way back in the civil war in this book, but Faber said that he remembers books smelling like spices when he was a boy. how old is this guy and were books really banned back in the civil war?
Jordan, in the society they live in, Faber is not normal. As society evolves, so does what is normal and wierd.
Jonathon- I don't think they do know that their world is better than the poverty.
Jacob: I am not saying that this couldn't happen because it so could happen and thats whats scary about it, and i guess I don't like reading these books because they just turn my mood ring blue and give me such a depressing vibe.
Caroline: Is who normal? sorry im confused
Just a general comment: When reading the book I realized that the whole world was not like this one society. Do you think that only America is like this society? Do you think that the whole world will grow in knowledge without America?
taylor: i can see how you don't like the books we are reading but we do read them for a reason. We don't read then just because they are classics but they are great books to analyze and create great discussions. Are fishbowl's are proof of that. These books are here to make people think and they do a great job of achieving that.
The inner circle is talking about how these people have families on T.V. Do you think that having a family on T.V. is any different than having a real family?
Annasophia- books weren't banned in the civil war, they only say that to make it seem like this idea wasn't new. Fable must have grown up in a family like Clarise's where thinking was allowed, and books were apart of their life.
AnnaSophia- no the idea of a "fireman" was created in the civil war times. like the original firefighters who fought fires instead of creating them. then they evolved to what they are known for at this time period
Who would run the TV stations if no one cared and lived by the clock of tv
Meg-exactly I think that would be really sad, because Montag would have gotten so close to breaking free of the chains that held him and then gone right back
AnnaSophia- There had to have been a civil war that was recent because it sounds like the characters in the book arn't too old and they just had to adapt to the way that things are. I also think that they had to be very small children so that they would not think that what they had to do was very different from how they lived before.
Do you guys think that having a family on T.V. is different from a real family? How? How is Bradbury's prediction correct in terms of what we have talked about technology in class?
In F451 it seems as though Montag's emotions are piling on top of him like an unwashed pile of laundry. Over the years his emotions were pushed to the side and now by reading books, and meeting Clarisse his emotions have become apparent. He is finally living and realizing. He is no longer numb to the society. On pg. 77 Montag felt as if he were goinng to cry becuase Mildred doesn't really know what love is. If Montag, a firemen, can see the society for what it really is can the rest of the people also?
taylor- would you rather read a happy, good feeling book rather than one like this one?
brooke: you make a good point their is always going to be someone who disagrees with you and will try to tell you that their way is right and yours is wrong. otherwise everybody would get along with each other.
nickm-true, but he was a professor and he taught at a college. so wouldn't that have been banned back in the civil war as well as the books?
What if there is a war going on right now in the book but nobody really cares too much. I think that it's lioke it is now with the war, people care and everything, but they don't support the troops like they used to, nobody makes peace gardens or they limit themselves to show support. Nobody really cares anymore.
Kaeli- You said that Faber was one of the last "normal people" but him being our defintion of normal would make him abnormal in that society.
Nick: I think the society is partly based on isolation. Like the inner circle is saying they are brought up know there is more world out there but, that the rest of the world is unimportant to their lives.
Jacob-if I was reading just at home, I would much rather read a happy book, or one thats just different. It helps you escape whats going on in your life and just think about something else
they think for themselves too much.
Jacob: My answer to the comment you made to Taylor, is yes, I would love to read happy books, because they have lessons too, but I understand why reading these books encourage disscussion, and connections.
annasophia- I didnt really get your question, but sydney said that firemen were created in the civil war. So i hope that helps.
Jacob-Could this come true probably... But I dont think that is really the point of this kind of literature. Instead I think Bradbury wanted to show an extreme world gone wrong so readers would contrast it with our world. This book is filled with symbolism that relates to our society so that people would think about elements of our society and how dangerous it is...
Caroline-good point. I think i just meant normal by our standards, someone who doesnt spend their whole lives watching tv and doing exactly what hes told
Jacob: yes I would but calm down kid because I am allowed to have my opinion about this book, just because it is a good disscussion book doesn't mean I have to enjoy reading it.
Sami- i agree, but i think that they don't want to go anywhere or do anything different is because they are affraid to be out of their comfort zone.
Nick and AnnaSophia - the books weren't banned in the civil war, the original idea of firefighters were created in the civil war time period. look on p. 54 if you have a book with the normal page numbers
Kaeli: I think I see what you are trying to say, you are saying that Faber is the last person who is normal to our world, someone who still thinks and questions.
I dont know about you all but I dont get up when the bell rings unconciously. I get up to go to my next class to learn. Also I dont want to get counted off for being late and I want to get a good grade and expand my knowledge and learn and eventually go to college and have a good life. This is what seperates me from them... I want this they dont (or maybe they do...). Still I dont think we should force our society on anyone...
Mrs. Smith had a good point. I freak out as well. This must be a hard time on Mildred, but how do you think this will change her?
meg: i do think their is a difference between having a real family is different from one on t.v because their is more of a intimate connection with a real family which people can't get that connection. Even if you spend your entire time with a t.v. family their isn't an intimate connection because if you try to touch the t.v. family you will just hit a screen when you can touch a real family.
How do you think "intellectuals" break the routine of this society?
I think what Smith says is true, but the only way to grow in your life is to disrupt the routine. You just stay exactly the way you are if you do the same thing every time every day
Megg: Thank you for reiterating my intial question.
Although I agree with Mrs. Smith, sometimes disrupting your routine is a good, fun thing. For example, going to Hawaii when you are supposed to be in school, or even this class, is isn't run the same as our routine English class, and yet it is fun, and a good way disrupts the routine.
On pg. 78 Montag says "Someone somewhere will give me back the old face and the old hands the way they were." In Macbeth, he blames his hands and in F451 it seems as though Montag blames his hands as not his own but also his own face. How could you blame your face for wrong-doing? I can understand blaming your hands but blaming your face (scapegoat) doesn't make that much sense...
Leah- Intellectuals challenge the system because they are "smart enough" tho tell what is going on.
Leah-I dont think intellectuals break the routine of society as much as they examine it and try to understand it, intrepret it and find meaning within it. I think they think about it and question it and try to find deeper meaning in life.
Nick - hopefully this will cause her to think for herself, and to be able to retain knowledge etc. but i think it will take a long time, perhaps the whole book
Jordan-Do intellectuals have to be smart...
Leah- By existing, intellectuals break the system.
Nick: Yes, they have grown up with a tiny comfort zone that they are scared to leave and they have a routine that they are terrified to disrrupt.
Anna- He blames his face because that is the picture of him that he has grown up with that is destroying the books. So if he gets his other face that doesn't burn books, then the guilt will be gone.
Anna- You can blame your face for something because your expressions that your face makes can expose you rtrue feelings that you are trying to hide. You might just need something to blame so you don't have to feel guilty.
You can blame things on your hands because you touch and do things with your hands. You can also blame your face because you see with your face/eyes.
Nick: hopefully this helps her think for herself and come out of her daily routine of doing nothing.
Jordan: In what ways do they challenge the system?
With what Smith just said about a leader emerging from fear. As I have learned in History, Hitler was the leader that emerged during times that were fearful and tough economically. The leader is not always good during times of fear. Also like in Lord of the Flies.
Governments always rule by fear... It started with the Romans and Greeks who were scaring people with religion and the fear of what happens after life.The same thing is going on now with Bush and Co. who are constantly scaring people with religion and fear...
Paula- I hated to have to say "smarter, but I could not think of any other expression, but they don't have to necessarily smarter, but in a sense more of a leader. Does that make sense?
Paul - Are you an Anarcist?
Paul- Could a government or a power be powerful and sucessful if there is no fear?
Inner circle- Aeon Flux is a movie that shows how people can challenge the system. A group of people are trained to abolish the government that is killing inncoent people.
Kaeli: How do you think that Mildred reacts to fear verses how Montag reacts to fear?
Annasophia-Fireman are government. A government is anything that enforces something and imposes rules over others. The fireman do this by burning books...
Leah- they challenge the system by really just existing. Thy will naturally start to question the situation, but sometimes the need a little push
Inner Circle- The Island is also another movie that shows the breaking of routine or the challenge of systems
Meg: Montag looks at fear and faces it head on trying to fix whatever is scaring him. Mildred shuts down and goes back to the routine so it doesnt scare her anymore
Meg- I think that Mildred collapses under pressure, whereas Montag can withstand more fear, and as the story goes on, he becomes stonger and stronger against fear.
Jordan: Who/What gives them that "little push"?
Paul: how is Bush scaring people with religion? Just because he is religious himself doesnt mean he is scaring people with his religion
Kaeli: Along with what you said, I think that Mildred faces her fear by backing away and going to rely on her T.V. family.
Brooke-Of course it can. I think the government however needs to be just, fair and have good intentions and be doing good things. If they are and the citizens think (key word their) they are their is no need for fear... Throughout history governments have become evil and crooked which is why fear is often used...
Brooke: I don't think a government could work properly if there isn't some amount of fear, there doesn't need to be a great amount of fear, but I don't think there is a system that doesn't involve some amount of fear.
Ziven-I am definitely not an anarchist. I simply think the government should do what is just and right and should do things that ultimately benefit the populace above the government. Thus I do not think the government should rule by fear or intimidation. I am not sure if this can ever really happen (I guess this is my Utopia) but ultimately it is the only way I think a government (in the truest sense of the word) can truly, effectively operate. As I have said I am not sure this can ever really work because of the great point Sami brought up. She said in order for a government to work properly their needs to be a certain amount of fear involved which is something I think might be true...
Annasophia-You said that by virtue of their existince intellectuals challenge the system. I do not think this is exactly true... If a society existed where everyone took an intellectual perspective to everything and looked at everything anylytically then wouldnt doing something brash without great thought, reason and anylyzation be breaking the system... I think you were trying to say that the existince of intellectuals and intellectual thinking breaks the system in opressive utopiam societies such as the one in 451 where the populace is encouraged or forced not to think and I agree with you their. I just wanted to point out to you that not every system is structured this way...
Kaeli-Anytime you bring up religion in politics I think you are obviously using it for some kind of agenda. It is fine for Bush or any other leader to practice any religion they want (though I personally would not want a leader that I feel is to radical or irrational in his religious views). However I do not think religion should be used in politics. Bush and other leaders scare people with their personal views and force them on them in the political arena. For example Bush claims that if you are against the Iraq War, you are against god because god wants everyone to be free or that if you are think abortion and birth control should be allowed then you are also against god because god believes abortion is murder. In effect Bush is using his religion to scare people because he is in affect telling them they are unamerican if they disagree with him. It is fine to believe this but I do not think it should be forced upon others and used to rationalize decisions that will affect the entire country. Also religion should not be used to attack someone's patriotism and loyalty to their country, which is what Bush is doing in order to get people to support his views...
Lady or the tiger is a story about human nature vs. a human emotion like love. I think that this novel is also about nature vs. emotion. I believe that although they are set in different time periods they are almost identical with the point they are trying to cross. There is no real answer. No real answer to happiness, or to love, not a definite answer to beauty or hope. And especially no real answer to fear. But isn't that the ultimate mystery, the ultimate reason to live. The ability to define huge concepts for you and only for you. It is when you know whether the beast or the lady comes out the door or when life and thoughts are defined for you like in 451 that life no longer has as much meaning, because it is not so up to you; you the individual.
Kailyn you made an excellent point. The reason why the society is failing is the mystery is taken out of the point I of lfe. When you create a novel you pour everything you have onto that page or computer screen. When you take that away the soul is left lacking something that it needs to live.
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