Where do you guys think the evil began to evolve in both LOF and Macbeth?
In the beginning of Macbeth, when the witches are speaking of their next meeting and meeting with Macbeth is the first warning of evil in my opinion.In LOF, I think the first indication of evil is when “the beastie” is first mentioned and the boys are afraid of where they are.
Yes I think you are right chelsea. This is an interesting thought because at first they are afraid of the evil coming from outside their group or camp(Macbeth thinks the evil will come from outside himself like from Macduff or other like him). But in the end of both storys ironically the evil comes from the inside.
I personaly think it began in the minds of the men, Macbeth and the minds of the boys in LOF. The one thing Jack and Macbeth had in common was their desire to be the dominate figure in a crumbling "society". They both recognized that they had an oppurtune moment when the people were at their weakest to act and take the law in their hands. They both manipulate eager minds that they know would listen. In Macbeths case it was Banquo and in Jacks it was Roger and the other older boys.
Another comment. Just a connection between Macbeth and LOF was that both had a divsion of leaders. Like Macbeth, Jack seized leadership which caused a divsion between the boys supporting Jack or their old leader Ralph, similar to Malcom and Macduff.
I think that “evil” began to evolve in Macbeth when he met the witches and they put they thoughts in his head that he would have power and then he decided that he needed to help himself get there. But in LOF I think that “evil” starts to evolve when Ralf was first named the chief of the group of boys. I think this because after this, jack wants power over hunting and after that it all just kind of blossomed into Jack wanting control of everything that the boys did, not just what they ate.
Wow, Trey, that was a great point that they fear evil that will harm them from the inside, but don't realize that what they really need to fear is the evil inside themselves. The world should do that; instead of fearing other people or things or picking on someone else, they should just look at themselves and notice how imperfect they are.
This is something that came to me while I was annotating Lord of the Flies. When Ralph is thinking quickly about where to hide when Jack and the hunters are out looking for him at the end of the book, he chooses a place that is dark. This same idea kind of arose when Macbeth hopes that it is dark so that no one can see the horrible deed that he is about to commit. So I guess that darkness conceals everything. It makes things unknown, whether it is good or bad.
I think evil started off right from the beginning in both books.I could tell it was gonna be a bad situation and people were going to be betrayed and stuff right away.
What is the story of Macbeth about on a large scale? If it is a story about fear, what does it mean, if it is about human nature, or about the world's nature what does it mean why is it relevant?
Hey, I thought we were only supposed to post questions not discuss them. Maybe I heard wrong, but to be safe I'm not going to say anything for today. But I'll be back.Anyway, here's my question that is similar to Kailyn's.What are authors (Shakespeare and Golding)trying to say about the true human nature?
I know this has already kind of been asked, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. When do you think the evil began to show up in both Macbeth and LOF?
The three witches tell Macbeth that he will become thane of Glamis, thane of Cawdor, and king. The first two parts of that prophecy come true for Macbeth without him doing anything to get the titles, why does he feel the need to kill the king to become king?
question:Is Macbeth portraying the dark realities of one’s own thoughts? (in an exaggerated way)
What emotion do you think dominates the main characters in both Macbeth and LOF?
Also, what do you guys think is the symbolic event/ person/ thing that represents evil/ the spreading of evil? (In both books.)
Could you guys connect each character of Macbeth to a character in LOF? I think it would be hard to put each character to fit another in a different book. Except for Ralph, Macbeth, Simon, and Duncan.
Good thought Marie!
Does darkness always symbolize deceit and bad things? Can it represent anything else?I also thought we weren't suppose to discuss but I like the question ;) I think evil appears when someone(Jack and Macbeth) want something they don't have. They will go to extreme measures to get it. Did anyone else notice that both Jack and Macbeth used violence and fear to keep their spot?
What about Lady Macbeth? In the end, we think she dies by going crazy - walking around in a daze, as if she is sleepwalking and not aware of the others around her. Is it possible that she was insane at the very beginning and that is what drove her to push Macbeth to kill Duncan? Maybe what actually kills her is a coming to grips with reality (actually becoming sane) and realizing that she cannot live with what she has done.
Ok I just have a few things I noticed in LOF and Macbeth. First, Darkness seems to be a theme in both. In Macbeth, all of the murders or crimes take place at night, in the dark. In LOF darkness is a theme throughout. Why is darkness so prevalent in our literature? And another question... Why are we reading such misogynistic books? In LOF there were no woman anywhere, and in Macbeth all women were evil or flawed. Why are women viewed so negatively in Macbeth? Did Shakespeare not like woman? Is he trying to make the point that behind every strong man there is a strong woman? And did Shakespeare's views of women affect the way the world views us?In response to Megs question, I agree with Chelsea that in LOF it started when they start to mention the beastie. Also the boys become more unfriendly to each other after they let the fire die out.In Macbeth it happened when Lady Macbeth starts to plot against Duncan. At least that's my opinion.
In Macbeth: at the very very beginning with the witches. For Macbeth, probably as soon as the witches told him about his curious future.LOF: as soon as jack appears you know he is going to be bad news. I agree with you about when Ralph was appointed chief and Jake was appointed hunterBrooke, then there was always jealousy in Jack from that point on.Not to get all Biblical on people, but in responds to Trey and Robert's comment, It think the looking on the inside of yourself and not judging other people is a very Christ like thing to do.Very prolific observation marie! It is sad to think that the only one character, who lived till the end, who tried to be true and not become a savage ended up turning to the "dark' to hide.The authors seem to have a really cynical perspective on the human race.Why do you think Golding would want to write this book? Why do you think Piggy is called Piggy? Does this have any reference to the pigs they were hunting? or maybe his character relates more to the bore (lord of the flies) because the bore seemed to be all knowing.Also, a theme in both books seems to be that humans are power hungry and will stop at nothing to get what they want. jack wants to be a leader, ralph wants to stay alive and build a fire. Macbeth wants to become king.Who does Simon's character relate to in macbeth?Alison good comment!What did the island represent in LOF? was it just a concentrated piece of humanity and testosterone?
It seems that the main point in both books in not darkness or fear. It is the desire for power. Is that not what drives the fear beyond just fear? Without the desire for power fear does nothing. But without fear the desire for power can stand alone. Therefor it seems that it is not fear that is the main idea of both story's but the want of power. Jack felt like he needed a lot of power. Sure he feared Ralph but from the very first scene when he didn't even know Ralph he wanted to control the boys. Same with Macbeth. When he first wanted to murder the king, he was only scared of getting caught(but that didn't drive him to do anything in fact it could have deterred him from that). I don't know, has anyone else noticed that?
In the prompt it tells us to challenge one another, how can we do that if we aren't discussing? Alison that is a really interesting comment i hadn't thought of that! But it makes sense in a really messed up way.Your right Kinsey. It seems like that in a lot of classics too.
Are we aloud to say lol on this? Well anyway well said annasophia. I believe the island represents detachment or a lack of authority. It is a sort of catalyst for bad ideas. It is what causes people to think what they wouldn't normally think.
Bayley- I totally agree with the power stuggle thing. It's the only way both Macbeth and Jack could keep their power which is by fear and force. My question is that in many books good always prevails, but can evil sometimes prevail too? There must be a balance and there can't always be a happy ending (as much as we reader all want one). Maybe Macbeth could have suceeded and McDuff fails; Jack wins and Ralph dies. It's happened in history, although eventually the leader/ king/emperor is taken down ,but they have sucesses for a while until the people or other nations fight against the evil.Remeber even in Macbeth good prevails over evil in the end - when Macbeth is killed.
I don't want one. The good guy wins in every story. Been there and its boring. These are two rare cases were the good dudes get owned.
Annasophia, your comment confused me. Aren't Jewish people and other people accepting of others? Thats seems slightly stereotypical.
So since we were supposed to ask questions, not answer them, here is my question: What was the point of Macbeth? I know it was written as a gift and that it is about power and the evils of power, but what is really the point (or moral would be a good word)of the whole story? Also- Is Lord of the Flies really just a cummmulation of all the major aspects of humanity? Like evil, power, war, survival, etc.Can Macbeth then be interpreted in the same fashion? Finally, someone mentioned that women were looked poorly upon in Macbeth. But think about this: is Lady Macbeth really a representation of how women were looked upon, or could she be a symbol of our external motivation to do things and not really a portrayal of women at the time at all?
Trey-I agree with out the desire for power Macbeth/ Jack wouldn't have gone to such extremes to get their "desire."Kinsey-I agree about women having such a A)weak role or B)being pyscho and being evil. Shakespeare probably didn't have a probably with women (see the movie Shakespeare in Love) it's just back then women no rights and weren't highly htought of.
Question:What similar themes do you see in both Macbeth and LOF?Appearance vs. Reality? etc...
In both Macbeth and LOF, why does evil appear? How is it promoted to the point that it consumes the characters? How is power a component in Macbeth and LOF? When does the need for power become a problem?Why do the characters give in to the pull to be in control?Why do some characters want power more than anything else, but others want nothing to do with it? Who are the real “villains” in Macbeth? In Lord of the Flies?Why are they considered villains?Are there any characters in either book that could have prevented the problems from happening? How could they have prevented the antagonist from committing the atrocities that they did?
How do you imagine reality in Shakespeare's time based on the setting and plot of Macbeth?
Wow I feel like I am being interviewed! Laugh out Loud. I think that having evil lose in a sense and good prevail, is meaningful, like a widespread Karma. Different types of human nature is a little scary though, dont u think?Good Luck on this tom. everyone!!!!
Why did Shakespeare and Golding use night and death for symbolism? Why didn't they use light and love?
Why do you think Lady Macbeth is the mastermind of the plot of them coming to power if in the end the guilt kills her? How can she give the order to do it but then is not able to handle it in the end? Macbeth wanted to do it even less and he actually killed him yet was hurt less by his guilt. Why?
In Macbeth sleep was killed. In Lord of the Flies innocence was killed. How is this similar?
My mother said something to me about people believing that one of Shakespeares versions of the play has Macbeth being homosexual. Has anyone else heard about this? According to the play we read in class could this be true?
I think that in Macbeth, more than just sleep was killed. Macbeth's conscience was killed and his future was killed. In LOF, the boys' innocence was definately killed. Even if the boys did not partake in any of the truobling things that went on, just seeing those things go on really kills the innocence of a child's eyes. Macbeth's innocence as a normal man was taken from him with his greed and extreme desire for greater power. In LOF, the boys' innocence was taken by the desire to kill pigs and the desire for power, as Jack left and formed his own cult in search of power, so there is definately a huge connection there.
Addressing many people's similar question. Why where women looked down upon so much in Macbeth? Well, I think that at the time women were looked down upon and Shakespeare was recognizing the power women DO have over men. He understood that women were not innocent and helpless, but almost as powerful and power hungry as all men. Why does good prevail over evil? It is certainly written that way in many books because people want a happy ending where the good guy wins. This is certainly not the way it ALWAYS happens in life. But I think that it does happen this way more often than not. Think about it. People who are doing something big and evil enough to cause a real conflict usually have some sort of self gain in mind. Well, anyone who helps them will probably not get the same gane. They have seperate evil motives of their own, so evil cannot band together as well. Good however, all has the common goal to defeat whatever evil. Nomatter who the bad guy is, if he wins he will have an affect over everyone, which gives a common goal to allow all good people, or even other bad people for that matter, to band together against a common evil. So I think that the good guy does not win simply because that is what readers want, but because that is often how it happens.
In the play Macbeth, Macbeth feels extreme amounts of guilt for his atrocities. In LOF Jack never feels any guilt for killing Simon or Piggy. Why do you think this is? Is it because of the age difference between Jack and Macbeth? Or is it something else entirely?
How can you relate both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth to the Bible?
Kailyn- I'm just saying that it is a trait that came to mind
Do you think that Macbeth is good or evil? Is Macbeth more like Jack or Ralph?
Evil started in both books as soon as people started to bring other ideas into the main characters thoughts. Evil started in Macbeth when Lady Macbeth wanted Macbeth to kill King Duncan. Then it set him on a killing rampage. Evil started in Lord of the Flies when the beast was first brought up. This sent everyone on a streak of fearfulness and acts of un-trust. Alright and Macbeth- doesn’t it seem as if Macduff is a bible-like figure in that he flees evil, loses his family to evil and then defeats evil by killing Macbeth. Almost like a David and Goliath story. Just something interesting that popped into my head.
I was wondering who or what everyone thought were the enablers, or almost enzymes, of Macbeth's actions? In other words who/what contributed to the overall decisions?For example, I percieved the witches and Lady Macbeth as those roles in the story because each of them gave Macbeth that extra push to do bad things, and basically his murderous acts were derrived from there prophecies and inputs in his life. And I know this is english not biology, but I related enzymes to this situation because in biology enzymes help speed up a process, or more specifically a chemical reaction, so I saw the witches and Lady Macbeth as enzymes because without them, Macbeth would possiby had eventually come to the result of murdering the king and many others, but it would've taken him a lot longer, as opposed to the "enzymes" pressuring him into this state of mind a whole lot faster. So that is what I came up with after thinking really really really hard.
How does peer pressure in Macbeth compare to peer pressure in our life today, as teenagers? Was it more effective back then or now? Is it more common now or then?These are the questions that haunt me.
Who do you think Macbeth resembles the best in LOF? Who do you think Banquo, King Duncan, Malcom, Macduff, and Lady Macbeth best resemble in LOF?
What is a common theme in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies?
In your opinion, what is one of the biggest connections between LOF and Macbeth? It could be the source of evil, ties between the characters, or any other connection. My second question: a climax is the part of the story when the story gets turned around, and a big change of events happen that eventually lead to the conclusion. So, what is the climax in Macbeth?
How do the characters in both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth coop with their fears?
Nickm, the climax in Macbeth I think is when Macbeth kills Duncan, this changes Macbeth literally and figuratively. Literally in a sense that Macbeth is now king, I know, obvious. Figuratively because after this, we see a change in Macbeth, he becomes blood thirsty and starts to go into a spiraling downfall. Ericak, it seems that Simon is Christ-like and almost the same with Duncan.Leslieh, when you are sleeping, you are innocent and vulnerable, just like we found out in Macbeth when he killed Duncan in his sleep. Innocence and sleep are both killed in these books at night as well. I don’t really have an explanation for it. Does anyone else know?Brookem, I will answer one of your questions, power in each of the two books, wants to be obtained by everyone. Even the littluns want some sort of power, and I believe that is why they ultimately follow Jack. Annasophiar, my grandmother loves this book, I know crazy right, she read it as soon as it came out and it was the big rage in that time. I think Golding wrote it because there were so many other books being published about people having to survive on their own that he thought that he could do it too. Oh and I think that Simon relates to Duncan in Macbeth, they both seem Christ-like, Simon was very non-judgmental and Duncan was looked up to by most everyone, and they both died tragic deaths. Does everyone remember that the first thing we talked about was the downfall of a tragic hero? Something to ponder.Laurao
What do you all think is the common tragic hero flaw in Macbeth and in Piggy/Ralph/Jack? Which of the Lord of the Flies charcters is the tragc hero, if there is one?
Here's another question:What was the role of Simon in LOF? What did he actually do? Which character was he like the most in Macbeth? Simon appeared completely innocent, but was he?
do you think the evil in both stories came from within or outside?when do you think the evil truly began?
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