Hey guys! I'm home sick but I'm going to participate in the fishbowl from home.
So I have a question for you all. Since Clarisse is questioning Montag's ingrained beliefs about society in this chapter by questioning the burning the books and everything about the world, do you think that she is challenging a system greater than Montag's system of beliefs?
I think the system she is challenging is his system of thought, not belief. I think that Montag is so confused that he doesn't know what he believes, he only knows what the thinks. And Clarisse is trying to make him think outside of that.
Justin- I think the 3 walls shows that there is still something open. It is not totally blocked and in some way their relationship still has some connection. If there were 4, all connection would be lost.
Justin- I think it symbloizes that the people in this world are almost entirely contained by these "walls" but they are still human, so they aren't entirely engoulfed by them/
Inner circle- I think that it is a happy world for those who believe it all. Those who believe equality and nothingness is good. Those who are okay with an easy life of no thought. But for others, it is not happy.
Bridget: I agree. I also think it's like a metaphor of Guy's life. After he met Clarisse, that wall was torn down, in a way, and he is now more open to the real world, unlike Mildred. She spends all her time listening to the Seashell or watching TV.
Kailyn, I think the only way to tell the difference is to go somewhere else that is not reality to you. I think everyone has their own idea of "reality"
Kailyn, I think the only way to tell the difference is to go somewhere else that is not reality to you. I think everyone has their own idea of "reality"
Katie- I think that there is definitely more than one type of happy. Are you happy when you get an A on a test? Are you still happy when swim practice is over? Are they both happy?
Katie- I don't think that there is a true happiness. You may think you are happy but in reality you aren't. People always think they are happy and then they get something else and they say that they are now happy. So does that mean that they weren't happy to begin with?
This is a question sort of stolen from the inner circle, Is Clarrisse really dead? Or will she appear later in the story? Or is she really dead but her impact on Guy will last through the story?
kinsey: i think that clarrise is challenging a larger system by opening the eyes of someone who has the power to go further with the challenge and do more for the cause. In this case that person is montag because he is a fireman and firemen are powerful in this society. So by challenging montag clarrise is challenging the way their society works
Katie- The types of hapiness certainly don't feel the same. An A on a test feels different than when somebody has a child or gets married. Also, when hapiness is permanent it can easily fade over time. They are still happy, but they don't seem affected by it as much.
I don't think that Clarrise is dead, but she is probably in some mental asylum, or something or like that. This is because she is so different from everyone else, and doesn't fit in, and they don't want people who don't fit in in this society.
I can't comprehend how ignorance can be bliss. These people are human beings, with no handicaps like in Harrison Bergeron, so they are capable of forming a conscience. I think the people who are happy in this society are forcing their own ignorance upon themselves to create a false sense of happiness. The people who are falsely happy can easily mask any true feelings by putting on a front.
Clarisse will have an impact on Guy through the whole entire book. He is already questioning his life and its purpose, the history behind the society, the importance of books, and why and maybe if he even loves his wife?
Alison: I disagree with your statement that there is no true happiness. There is such thing as true happiness, but in this world we live in, it is very hard to get to. Death and tragedies surround us everyday so it is hard to maintain happiness.
Kailyn- You bring up an interesting point. Maybe all around is actually a fake society created by the government. Maybe this is all just fake and there is someone out there controlling all of our actions?
I have a question to pose for everyone. Do you think the live burning of the woman would have had such an affect on Montag without Clarisse? Would it have eventually still brought about the same thoughts and disgust with society or would he have dismissed it like all the others?
Justin - He certainly was influenced by her when she was alive because I don't think that he had met anyone like the before. But now that she is dead he is starting to think more about her more often and going through what she had said in his head over and over again and thinking about it more deeply to realize what it meant.
Caroline: i thin that clarrise is really dead. Her part in the story is done. She was there to open montag's eyes to their society and tomake him think. Her impact will leave a lasting impression on Montag, but she is dead and will not reappear in the story
Justin- I know that I'm not in the inner circle, but i think that Clarisse influenced him alot both when she was alive and after she died. I think that her death might have opened up his eyes to the fact that what he is taking part in is bad and could really hurt everybody. When she was alive, she was different and that showed him that not everyone is a mindless person like his wife. That's also why I think that now he's really thinking about his life and questioning it all.
What significance does the part with the dandelion have and how Clarrise was saying that he must not be in love with Mildred? Even if she was joking around do you think it made Guy get to thinking if he really does?
Katie- I think that the dandelion part was a small thing that just sparked the flame. It made him realize and actually admit to himself that he is not in love with Mildred and that his whole life has been thougless and empty and meaningless.
So, Guy has a book, why do you think he has it? Why would he want a book when he knows it's illegal to have them and it's his job to distroy them and the people who have them? Why?
Clarisse will never be dead her thoughts and questions have influenced a firemen. A firemen is one of the most brain washed of the society! She might be dead physically but not mentally.
Caroline - I think that Clarisse, really dead or not, will make Montag change the way he thinks about the world and burning the books. I think we are in for a big change.
Justin: With so many deaths going on can people really be happy? They could act happy or think they are happy but truly be sad. Is it even worth trying to be happy with so many deaths? For me it seems like every time i start think I feel happy something bad happens and i lose my feeling of happiness.
Brooke - I think Guy likes books. He just feels obligated to burn them as a job because that is what his father and grandfather had done. I believe he is the different one in his family.
Allison- happiness is a state of mind. It's not impossible to obtain it, it just depends on our outlook on life. If you see everything positive, then true happiness is possible. So in conclusion it's possible to have true happiness if you see the positive on everything.
Lauren, I think that her character, her actual being is gone from the rest of the book. However, her idea has only just begun and will be a major part in the rest of the story.
Bridget: i do not think that the burning of the woman alive would not of had such an affect on montag without clarrise because in the book the people being burned alive with their books had happened before. I don't thin montag noticed those people as much because no one had made him think like clarrise had. Once she did make him think though, Montag realized how terrible it was to burn someone alive.
Brooke- I think he took a book because he has been thinking and that simple line in the book opened his eyes to all that he has missed. He is essentially curious about what could be so amazing that the woman would sacrifice her life for it.
Brooke: That is what I think. When Clarisse first met Guy, she opened up a new thought for him, but never began to think too much about it. After she died, he started to think that if she was right in her thoughts and there was some sort of truth in her words, then what can I do to change this society? He began to think for himself, not just off the thoughts of Clarisse.
Alison - I disagree with your statement. I just think that when people get something else they've always wanted then they are just infact more happy. I think that there is a true happy,but it doesn't affect everyone. Some people pretend to be happy, like Montag.
Brady- I definately agree with you. However, he mentioned that this time was different because usually the police arrive and arrest the person first, but this time they arrived first. I don't think he has ever seen any of the owners of the books before.
Jacob- How can Clarisse just be in some sort of mental state when she's gone? If she was just in a mental state, wouldn't she still be at her house, or atleast somewhere else? Not just gone?
Everyone in this society is so conformed, but where do families like Clarisse's emerge from? I think this is evidence that all of these people who are a part of this society have a functioning conscience, they are afraid to excercise it.
Brian- Yes, that definately makes sense. He really believes in Clarisse's thoughts and beliefs and trusts in what she says. He does not think of it as a simple game but as something much more important.
Katie- Yes like an a coma because that would make sense or some sort of deep sleep, which is sort of the same thing. I'm not sure what an a coma is like but i know when you sleep your brain is very active.
Kinsey: Montag thought he was happy until he thought about it. People don't think about if they are truly happy or not. If you were to think about if your happy or not what would you say? You would have to think about that and you couldn't just think about it for five minutes.
I agree with the inner circle. The society is not happy they go through a routine every day that causes them to ignore their emotions. Instead they drain their brains by watching t.v. or take pills.
Justin- That is a good point. It's kind of like what we were talking about with Macbeth, that there is no good without evil. There is no happiness without sadness and visa versa.
Jacob: You said that happiness is a state of mind, but doesn't happiness or sadness around you affect that? Therefore, state of mind is reflected by the surroundings or what you truly do feel.
kinsey: i do tink that clarrise challenging system will bring about a change because she made montag think and he is in a better position to be succesful in challenging the system. I think thats what the rest of the book is going to be about. Montag challenging the system which is the society that he lives in.
Justin- Okay, this leads me to another question. Is there any way that the govermnent or somebody else could have found out that Clarisse had new, different ideas and they thought that was bad so they took her away? Beatty did say that her family had been watched because they were different. Could that have anything to do with how she's gone and nobody knows where she is?
nick- Good point. I definately agree. They took true happiness and changed it so that it only seems like happiness, but is really nothingness. Why would they have done that? Is it because if they remove true hapiness, they can also remove true sadness? Like Justin said, without one you can't have the other. So, what are you willing to sacrifice to rid the world of sadness? Is a world of no emotion better than one with good AND bad emotions? I can see their intentions I think.
Justin: Is there even sadness? What are emotions? You can feel them but you can't be sure of what you are feeling. Most people don't take the time to think about how they are feeling.
Anna - I agree with you. Personally, I don't like routine. But some people do. I beleive that it does cause them to ignore their emotions because they are afraid to change because it will effect their routine. Does anyone think that eventually in this story, the society will change?
Alison- Good point. True happiness is not simple and not common but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There are a select few who are truley happy.
Alison: True happiness is not possible until after you experience grieving and true sadness. When you experience this and realize what this sadness is, then you can figure out what happiness is.
Ziven- If we didn't have any knowldege or learning would we know what we were missing? Would we know how to kill ourselves? Or would we have an unconcious desire to just die?
Bridget- That is an excellent question. I don't think that it is worth it to give up happiness to get rid of sadness. Happiness and sadness are just always going to be around and when you get rid of them the world becomes boring.
Brigit- I totally i agree. They just wanted to find the most happy thing possible, but they only manipulated their minds to think that nothing was happy. This is the one biggest thing that is wrong with the society they live in.
Kinsey: I agree. There are very few people who know how to be happy or escape from this sadness. Just because it's rare does not mean it does not exist.
Justin: Most people don't experience true sadness. Not every one will experience true sadness. I have a friend that has had a lot of terrible things happen to her and she acts happy all the time but i don't believe that she can really be happy.
Ziven- I agree with Caroline that if we didn't have access to all of these things we wouldn't know what we were missing and we would just keep living our lives the way we always did.
Justin and Kinsey- You say that there are people (even though they are rare) that can just not be sad? Wouldn't they be horribly represed and sad anyway? Trying not to be sad can make you sad too. Is it possible to be happy all the time? Or is it better just to live through your emotions and take from your experiences to make yourself a better person?
Kailyn - Yes, i am happy :) People our age and in our society have so many opportunities that if someone isn't happy, it's almost their own fault because they won't do something about it.
Kailyn- I think that that quote means that people mostly break their eggs in the middle or at the larger end and people in this book don't know how to change what they do and like the inner circle said, people in this society would do anything just to feel something, even if they get killed.
Justin- the atmosphere around you shouldnt affect you unless it affects you directly. like your dog dying and your family being sad. That should affect you but just think of all those good days when your dog and you played ball and thats what cancles out the bad.
Alison: Well maybe she acts happy because she is happy. Maybe she has something else that can make her happy. I do not know. You may be right, she might be just acting.
Kinsey: Don’t you think that if we didn’t have all this technology and books we would still find other ways to educate ourselves? In every society there are people who are not happy with the way that society is.
Kailyn- to feel happy, i need to feel full. In this society, they don't fill themselves with anything- the tv shows are junk with no fill, and they are not actually happy.
Caroline - I think that you don’t' need knowledge to feel emotion. What I meant to ask in my question is: would you rather die than live in a world like 451's?
Nick- Totally. It's like, happiness can only be achieved if you are happy of your own choice.
Kinsey- I would certainly view it the same way. But I can see where the people who started this society were coming from. It's kind of like stem cell research. Sure, it will cure disease and stuff hopefully, but I it also thought that it is possible to do things like choose how the "build" your child. Choose their eye color, etc. That is like giving up the good type of difference (people's individuality) to get rid of the bad differences. I think this book is predicting the future still, just in an exagerated way.
Caroline- I'm not saying that these people don't experience sadness. I'm saying that they deal with their sadness better and learn from it to get through it quicker. Plus I think that you get to a point where you are so happy the little thing that used to make you sad don't affect you anymore.
ziven: if i had to live in a society where books were outlawed i would keep books until i got caught in which case i would take the same path as the old woman and die with the books. i wouldn't do this just because of the books but i would be loosing a lot more than books.The books are burned inside the victims house and all teir posesions with the books. So when the books are burned the victim basicly looses their life even if they are still breathing.
Allison- that is their own problem because if they can't find atleast a bit of happiness in everything, they need to change their outlook on life. It will make their life so much better.
Katie- Montag is already heading down that path but he will have to find a companion to help him challenge the system. Like in LOF Jack needed followers to help him change Ralph's society.
Katie- I agree that you have to WANT to be happy. I think that the mind is a powerful thing and that if you put your mind to it you can make yourself be, feel, or think anything, including make yourself happy, but are you really happy if you're just telling yourself that?
Inner Circle and Mrs Smith: In No Country for Old Men, it ended with nothing but death, but isn't there things that come out of death? Even life can come out of death in some instances.
Brady- So you are essentially saying "give me liberty or give me death". If freedom is taken out of our society, you are willing to give it all up just to hold that freedom?
Jacob: What if they don't want to find happiness in things? What if they just want to be sad? Or what if they don't know how to find happiness in things?
Bridget- I can see where your coming from. I think that the people who built this society were trying too hard to protect the inhabitants. I think it just got out of control. What do you think?
Inner Circle: Even in children's short stories, there is substance in what they interpret the story to be. It may not be anything to us, but it means everything to them.
Justin you make a really good point. For instance, if there is a horrible fire, there are little flowers that grow out of the ground after it, and there are happy little fuzzy animals coming back to try to live, even though the fire killed a lot of things.
Justin you make a really good point. For instance, if there is a horrible fire, there are little flowers that grow out of the ground after it, and there are happy little fuzzy animals coming back to try to live, even though the fire killed a lot of things.
Comics aren't informational- in a way. Yes they can tell you information, but usually its just an entertainment thing to make people laugh and be "happy".
Brooke - Yes! You need to know what it feels like to be sad so you can actually feel the difference of being happy. I don't know anyone that would rather be sad though like some people have said. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Kinsey- Definately. They wanted to make life easy for the people. I think that is the same goal of many people today. I think that our world tries too hard to make things fair, equal, and easy when it simply can't, or shouldn't be so. It is all a good idea, the question is, how far is too far?
Brooke- Yes I agreee, but it also goes the other way around. You must know happiness to know sadness. But once again, it is different for everyone. So you might know your own happiness but not someone else's.
Kinsey and Brooke: The society in the story went too out of control by trying to restrict them too much. If there is 100% restriction, there cannot be any evil. With freedom comes evil, in a way that some people uses the freedom for good, and some use it for bad.
Brooke- Good point. But don't you think that there comes a time in your life where you stop making decisions that made you sad before? yes sometimes life throws us things that are sad that we can't control. But we can make smarter decisions and not get as hurt from them.
Kailyn- I'm not so sure unrealistic is a good word. I think that it is far-fetched. But while they may not be able to fly, they can still be heros. Comic books can put that idea and wanting in a kids mind and heart to be someone's hero. Which, I think is a great motivator in life.
Justin- Alot of things come from death. I havn't seen No Country for Old Men, but I have seen Sweeney Todd and it sounds like it's the same in both movies, everyone ends up dieing. In Sweeney Todd, the I guess you could say circle, of killing and death and all of the conflicts from the beginning are resolved. But in most books and movies, doesn't a form of closure come from death?
Ziven: If I had a choice, I would live so that I could change it. If you died for no reason, there would be no change. I'm not saying that people's death does not change anything, though.
Ziven: I'm not saying everyone is depressed. People think they are happy and the might be. But no one thinks about what they are feeling. No one truly knows how they are feeling until they stop and think about it.
Brian had an excellent idea. A spark is needed to start a fire and an idea- this shows the irony of this whole idea of this utopia based on the burning of books.
Everyone- I'm reading several people's conversations, including my own and I think many of us are coming to the same conclusion. "Give me liberty or give me death" Caroline and Brady both have said they would rather die like the woman with the books than live in a world like that.
Justin- How do you know society want out of control? Maybe this is how they wanted it to become. What if the people voted for laws that would limit their freedom and they really didn't know what they were voting for, they thought it would be good but it ended badly.
Allison- why wouldnt't they want to find happiness? Why would they want to be drug down by dreadful thoughts and try to not find any happiness in anything? Im pretty sure that just about everyone knows how to find the bright side in everything other wise there might be something wrong with that person.
Kinsey: They put the restrictions there to stop evil and make everyone equal, but making everyone equal is evil because it takes away the gift of being unique. If you were like everyone else, how would you feel?
nick- Definately. And in a way, wasn't it the fire and the burning of the books that helped to spark Montag's fire? He is thinking because of all the books he has burned. Are the firefighters more suseptable to having their thought sparked by the fire?
In response to "Give me liberty or give me death, I think the only people who are thinking this are the people who have seen more and felt more through reading books.
Kailyn - But I don't really think kids are that sad. They tend to believe that they can be anything and do anything they want. That's what is so great about childhood.
bridget: i would probably live without freedoms. I was trying to say that once all of the books are burned everything the person had is gone, they don't have a house, their mortage bills are going to sky rocket, then they will be in debt and won't be able to take out a loan because they would have terrible credit, and they would just be put in complete turmoil. It is kind of hard to be able to want to live when you are in a hole that there is know possile way to get out of.
Justin- I would feel terrible being like everyone else. Its my uniqueness that I love. But I agree with your point. They were trying to make eveyone equal. Kind of like what they were doing in Harrison Burgeron.
THen if we would rather die then live in a society like this, is there no more value to life then knowledge and love. What about being able to walk and feel a breeze, doesnt that give value to life, even though minimal?
Brooke: It is true, some people want to be controlled and lose freedom. If you could have the time of your life and endanger yourself, or be safe and not get injured at all but lose some or all your freedoms, which would you choose? Some would choose one, another would choose the other. Everyone has different likes and dislikes.
Kailyn- Definately. We seem to all be seeing a lot of opposites that must exist together in the world. hapiness and sadness, peace and war. Without one the other cannot exist. So, anything that does one thing can also do the opposite. We are also talking about the fire. It can burn down ideas, or spark them. The world is composed of opposites.
Jacob: People might have had so many bad things happen to them that they don't care anymore and just want to give up. If i lost everyone i cared about i wouldn't want happiness anymore. It is possible for people to not be able to find happiness. If they don't want happiness then they won't try to find it.
Alison – How can you lose core emotions to the point that you have to think to feel them? Just because you have no access to knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t feel anything. I think that restricting knowledge is just a tactic of demoralization.
kailyn- there is more to life than living because there is no end to life. You stop living but you dont end there. you go into the hands of god and sit right next to him. How awesome is that? Wouldn't that be ten times cooler than just a dumb old routine of living?
kailyn- there is more to life than living because there is no end to life. You stop living but you dont end there. you go into the hands of god and sit right next to him. How awesome is that? Wouldn't that be ten times cooler than just a dumb old routine of living?
So Katie, you were never sad as a child? Ever? I think that children experience more emotion than most adults because adults try to repress their emotions.
Carol - Yes. Anna and I were talking about that before. We believe that whether the changes are major or minor, the society is bound to change. I think that Guy keeping the book and starting to feel differently about all this burning is forshadowing that the society will begin to feel the same way.
Brooke- Have you ever made a stupid mistake that got you into a lot of trouble and then you feel so stupid and sad because you made the mistake? Well if you have, like me, then there comes a point where you learn and stop making those mistakes.
Brady: To live in a society that does not allow you to feel anything would be death in itself. As Emily Leighton said in Iron Jawed Angels : "In prison or out, American women are not free." I think that if you take away feeling, it is like death, but you would be continuously dying, whereas, if you die once, you're free.
Jacob, then what is life, if we live after we die, which is the opposite of life? I am not saying I disagree with you, because I dont it just seems like a strange comment.
Justin- What if there was a large war and people decided that they could not coltrol themselves and they boted for all of this to happen and they just wanted to have limits so they would not lose control and kill everyone else.
Katie: Little things can change society, like you said. For example, the amendments that are here in Colorado are thought to be little changes, but it could change everything.
223 comments:
1 – 200 of 223 Newer› Newest»Hey guys! I'm home sick but I'm going to participate in the fishbowl from home.
So I have a question for you all. Since Clarisse is questioning Montag's ingrained beliefs about society in this chapter by questioning the burning the books and everything about the world, do you think that she is challenging a system greater than Montag's system of beliefs?
kinsey- I don't think she is specifically challenging Montag's beliefs, but the beliefs that are forced upon him.
I think the system she is challenging is his system of thought, not belief. I think that Montag is so confused that he doesn't know what he believes, he only knows what the thinks. And Clarisse is trying to make him think outside of that.
Does the detail that there is 3, not 4, have any symbolic meaning?
Parlor walls.
Justin- 3 not 4 what?
Justin- I think the 3 walls shows that there is still something open. It is not totally blocked and in some way their relationship still has some connection. If there were 4, all connection would be lost.
Justin- I think it symbloizes that the people in this world are almost entirely contained by these "walls" but they are still human, so they aren't entirely engoulfed by them/
How could you tell the difference of reality if you were completely surrounded by it.
Do you think that there is more than one type of happy?
Inner circle- I think that it is a happy world for those who believe it all. Those who believe equality and nothingness is good. Those who are okay with an easy life of no thought. But for others, it is not happy.
Do you guys think that Clarisse is happy? Or would she be happier if the system wasn't the way it was?
Bridget: I agree. I also think it's like a metaphor of Guy's life. After he met Clarisse, that wall was torn down, in a way, and he is now more open to the real world, unlike Mildred. She spends all her time listening to the Seashell or watching TV.
How can they not be happy when they have put this on themselves.
Kailyn, I think the only way to tell the difference is to go somewhere else that is not reality to you. I think everyone has their own idea of "reality"
katie- Definately. I think there are unlimited types of happiness. Happiness in love, in contentment, temporary hapiness, permanent happiness...
Kailyn, I think the only way to tell the difference is to go somewhere else that is not reality to you. I think everyone has their own idea of "reality"
Caroline - That is a good point. He's kind of been brain washed into believing all of it.
Kailyn- Was it them? It could've been the earlier generation. And they did not all have say in what was happening.
Katie- I think that there is definitely more than one type of happy. Are you happy when you get an A on a test? Are you still happy when swim practice is over? Are they both happy?
Caroline: I think that Clarisse is happy, she spends her lfe exploring and having fun and most of the time the system doesn't effect her.
Katie+Kailyn: People are made happy by different things. For some it is love and friendship, but for some, it is material possessions.
Katie - I think that happiness is decided by the individual so yes.
Katie- I don't think that there is a true happiness. You may think you are happy but in reality you aren't. People always think they are happy and then they get something else and they say that they are now happy. So does that mean that they weren't happy to begin with?
This is a question sort of stolen from the inner circle, Is Clarrisse really dead? Or will she appear later in the story? Or is she really dead but her impact on Guy will last through the story?
Inner Circle: Do you think Guy was more influence by Clarisse before or after her death? To me it seemed that he began to think more after her death.
kinsey: i think that clarrise is challenging a larger system by opening the eyes of someone who has the power to go further with the challenge and do more for the cause. In this case that person is montag because he is a fireman and firemen are powerful in this society. So by challenging montag clarrise is challenging the way their society works
Katie- The types of hapiness certainly don't feel the same. An A on a test feels different than when somebody has a child or gets married. Also, when hapiness is permanent it can easily fade over time. They are still happy, but they don't seem affected by it as much.
I think that she will appear later in the story. I don't understand why she might be dead. Can anyone explain that to me?
I don't think that Clarrise is dead, but she is probably in some mental asylum, or something or like that. This is because she is so different from everyone else, and doesn't fit in, and they don't want people who don't fit in in this society.
Justin- having 3 walls instead of 4 shows that there is still some chance for change. There is still an oportunity to turn back and make things right.
I can't comprehend how ignorance can be bliss. These people are human beings, with no handicaps like in Harrison Bergeron, so they are capable of forming a conscience. I think the people who are happy in this society are forcing their own ignorance upon themselves to create a false sense of happiness. The people who are falsely happy can easily mask any true feelings by putting on a front.
Nick: Do you think that Clarisse is completly gone out of the book?
Clarisse will have an impact on Guy through the whole entire book. He is already questioning his life and its purpose, the history behind the society, the importance of books, and why and maybe if he even loves his wife?
Alison: I disagree with your statement that there is no true happiness. There is such thing as true happiness, but in this world we live in, it is very hard to get to. Death and tragedies surround us everyday so it is hard to maintain happiness.
Kailyn- You bring up an interesting point. Maybe all around is actually a fake society created by the government. Maybe this is all just fake and there is someone out there controlling all of our actions?
Caroline: I agree with what the inner circle said in the sense that I think Guy has a lot more to learn from Clarisse.
I think that the earpiece Mildred wears is also a wall that she put between herself and Guy.
I have a question to pose for everyone. Do you think the live burning of the woman would have had such an affect on Montag without Clarisse? Would it have eventually still brought about the same thoughts and disgust with society or would he have dismissed it like all the others?
Justin - He certainly was influenced by her when she was alive because I don't think that he had met anyone like the before. But now that she is dead he is starting to think more about her more often and going through what she had said in his head over and over again and thinking about it more deeply to realize what it meant.
Caroline: i thin that clarrise is really dead. Her part in the story is done. She was there to open montag's eyes to their society and tomake him think. Her impact will leave a lasting impression on Montag, but she is dead and will not reappear in the story
Caroline – Yes I think that Clarisse is really dead but she will be a very strong influence to him for the rest of the book.
Brady- Do you think that Clarisse challenging the system will work? Do you think the system will change?
Do you really think that clarisse is dead? I dont. I think that she is in some sort of mental state that makes her dead inside if that makes sence...
Justin- I know that I'm not in the inner circle, but i think that Clarisse influenced him alot both when she was alive and after she died. I think that her death might have opened up his eyes to the fact that what he is taking part in is bad and could really hurt everybody. When she was alive, she was different and that showed him that not everyone is a mindless person like his wife. That's also why I think that now he's really thinking about his life and questioning it all.
What significance does the part with the dandelion have and how Clarrise was saying that he must not be in love with Mildred? Even if she was joking around do you think it made Guy get to thinking if he really does?
If Clarisse isn't dead where is? Is she coming back?
If she isn't dead then where is she?
Katie- I think that the dandelion part was a small thing that just sparked the flame. It made him realize and actually admit to himself that he is not in love with Mildred and that his whole life has been thougless and empty and meaningless.
So, Guy has a book, why do you think he has it? Why would he want a book when he knows it's illegal to have them and it's his job to distroy them and the people who have them? Why?
Jacob - What do you mean like a coma or something? That would kind of make sense because she still has like brain waves and stuff. What do you think?
They are getting rid of the individual and the value of life by getting rid of funerals. But what do you guys think?
Clarisse will never be dead her thoughts and questions have influenced a firemen. A firemen is one of the most brain washed of the society! She might be dead physically but not mentally.
Caroline - I think that Clarisse, really dead or not, will make Montag change the way he thinks about the world and burning the books. I think we are in for a big change.
Justin: With so many deaths going on can people really be happy? They could act happy or think they are happy but truly be sad. Is it even worth trying to be happy with so many deaths? For me it seems like every time i start think I feel happy something bad happens and i lose my feeling of happiness.
Brooke - I think Guy likes books. He just feels obligated to burn them as a job because that is what his father and grandfather had done. I believe he is the different one in his family.
Allison- happiness is a state of mind. It's not impossible to obtain it, it just depends on our outlook on life. If you see everything positive, then true happiness is possible. So in conclusion it's possible to have true happiness if you see the positive on everything.
Lauren, I think that her character, her actual being is gone from the rest of the book. However, her idea has only just begun and will be a major part in the rest of the story.
Bridget: i do not think that the burning of the woman alive would not of had such an affect on montag without clarrise because in the book the people being burned alive with their books had happened before. I don't thin montag noticed those people as much because no one had made him think like clarrise had. Once she did make him think though, Montag realized how terrible it was to burn someone alive.
Brooke- I think he took a book because he has been thinking and that simple line in the book opened his eyes to all that he has missed. He is essentially curious about what could be so amazing that the woman would sacrifice her life for it.
Personally I think that Clarisse is dead, because it proves the point that people did die but nobody really took notice.
Bridget- I also think the dandelion showed the truth because he trusts what Clarisse says and she said that he is not in love.
Brooke: That is what I think. When Clarisse first met Guy, she opened up a new thought for him, but never began to think too much about it. After she died, he started to think that if she was right in her thoughts and there was some sort of truth in her words, then what can I do to change this society? He began to think for himself, not just off the thoughts of Clarisse.
Jacob: But how do you know it is true happiness?
Would anyone like to come sit in on the inner circle?
Alison - I disagree with your statement. I just think that when people get something else they've always wanted then they are just infact more happy. I think that there is a true happy,but it doesn't affect everyone. Some people pretend to be happy, like Montag.
Inner circle and everyone - What did that quote mean that people would rather die then something about an egg? I didnt really get that.
Brady- I definately agree with you. However, he mentioned that this time was different because usually the police arrive and arrest the person first, but this time they arrived first. I don't think he has ever seen any of the owners of the books before.
Alison: Even with these deaths, couldn't there be happiness? If there is sadness, there has to be happiness. There is not one without the other.
Jacob- How can Clarisse just be in some sort of mental state when she's gone? If she was just in a mental state, wouldn't she still be at her house, or atleast somewhere else? Not just gone?
Everyone in this society is so conformed, but where do families like Clarisse's emerge from? I think this is evidence that all of these people who are a part of this society have a functioning conscience, they are afraid to excercise it.
Brian- Yes, that definately makes sense. He really believes in Clarisse's thoughts and beliefs and trusts in what she says. He does not think of it as a simple game but as something much more important.
I agree with what Jonathan said, but what happened was they manipulated happiness into nothing, no emotion.
Kailyn can you find the quote for me so I can bring it up.
Katie- Yes like an a coma because that would make sense or some sort of deep sleep, which is sort of the same thing. I'm not sure what an a coma is like but i know when you sleep your brain is very active.
Kinsey: Montag thought he was happy until he thought about it. People don't think about if they are truly happy or not. If you were to think about if your happy or not what would you say? You would have to think about that and you couldn't just think about it for five minutes.
Justin- I think you proved a utopia is not possible because if there is happines there is sadness and a in a utopia sadness is absent.
I agree with the inner circle. The society is not happy they go through a routine every day that causes them to ignore their emotions. Instead they drain their brains by watching t.v. or take pills.
Justin- That is a good point. It's kind of like what we were talking about with Macbeth, that there is no good without evil. There is no happiness without sadness and visa versa.
Jacob: You said that happiness is a state of mind, but doesn't happiness or sadness around you affect that? Therefore, state of mind is reflected by the surroundings or what you truly do feel.
kinsey: i do tink that clarrise challenging system will bring about a change because she made montag think and he is in a better position to be succesful in challenging the system. I think thats what the rest of the book is going to be about. Montag challenging the system which is the society that he lives in.
Justin- Okay, this leads me to another question. Is there any way that the govermnent or somebody else could have found out that Clarisse had new, different ideas and they thought that was bad so they took her away? Beatty did say that her family had been watched because they were different. Could that have anything to do with how she's gone and nobody knows where she is?
nick- Good point. I definately agree. They took true happiness and changed it so that it only seems like happiness, but is really nothingness. Why would they have done that? Is it because if they remove true hapiness, they can also remove true sadness? Like Justin said, without one you can't have the other. So, what are you willing to sacrifice to rid the world of sadness? Is a world of no emotion better than one with good AND bad emotions? I can see their intentions I think.
If you had to either live in a world without books/knowlage or kill yourself like the old woman what would you do?
"It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several times suffered death rather than submit to break their eggs at the smaller end."
is the quote I was wondering about.
Justin: Is there even sadness? What are emotions? You can feel them but you can't be sure of what you are feeling. Most people don't take the time to think about how they are feeling.
Anna - I agree with you. Personally, I don't like routine. But some people do. I beleive that it does cause them to ignore their emotions because they are afraid to change because it will effect their routine. Does anyone think that eventually in this story, the society will change?
A world without true happiness is also a world without true sadness. Is it worth it to give up hapiness to rid the world of sadness?
Alison- Good point. True happiness is not simple and not common but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There are a select few who are truley happy.
Alison: True happiness is not possible until after you experience grieving and true sadness. When you experience this and realize what this sadness is, then you can figure out what happiness is.
That is a sad question Ziven. But I would say that for me life is valuable, maybe moreso then a facts.
Bridget- All of that aside, why would he take a book?
Allison- if you find the bright side in everything it will cancle out the bad. Atleast thats the way it is for me...
Ziven- If we didn't have any knowldege or learning would we know what we were missing? Would we know how to kill ourselves? Or would we have an unconcious desire to just die?
Ziven - Do you mean starting life with no knowledge or having some then getting it cut off?
Bridget- That is an excellent question. I don't think that it is worth it to give up happiness to get rid of sadness. Happiness and sadness are just always going to be around and when you get rid of them the world becomes boring.
Brigit- I totally i agree. They just wanted to find the most happy thing possible, but they only manipulated their minds to think that nothing was happy. This is the one biggest thing that is wrong with the society they live in.
Katie-
The way F451 is heading i think that the society is bound to change. All societies change whether it be minor or major.
leah: in all societies there are people that are different and stick out from other people. Clarrise's family are those people in this story.
Kinsey: I agree. There are very few people who know how to be happy or escape from this sadness. Just because it's rare does not mean it does not exist.
Are you happy?
Justin: Most people don't experience true sadness. Not every one will experience true sadness. I have a friend that has had a lot of terrible things happen to her and she acts happy all the time but i don't believe that she can really be happy.
Ziven- I agree with Caroline that if we didn't have access to all of these things we wouldn't know what we were missing and we would just keep living our lives the way we always did.
AnnaSophia had a good point. Montag had taken books before and started to think about challenging the system and Clarise sparked this fire within him.
Jacob: Not everyone can find the bright side in everything.
We say that they might not even know that these people are not happy, so then if you are happy how do you know???
Justin and Kinsey- You say that there are people (even though they are rare) that can just not be sad? Wouldn't they be horribly represed and sad anyway? Trying not to be sad can make you sad too. Is it possible to be happy all the time? Or is it better just to live through your emotions and take from your experiences to make yourself a better person?
Brooke- Curiosity can get the better of us. So I believe Guy eventually would open a book. He is also exposed to books on a regular basis.
Kailyn - Yes, i am happy :) People our age and in our society have so many opportunities that if someone isn't happy, it's almost their own fault because they won't do something about it.
Kailyn- I think that that quote means that people mostly break their eggs in the middle or at the larger end and people in this book don't know how to change what they do and like the inner circle said, people in this society would do anything just to feel something, even if they get killed.
Justin- the atmosphere around you shouldnt affect you unless it affects you directly. like your dog dying and your family being sad. That should affect you but just think of all those good days when your dog and you played ball and thats what cancles out the bad.
Justin- Exactly! Do you think that there are as many people truley happy in 451 as there are today?
Alison: Well maybe she acts happy because she is happy. Maybe she has something else that can make her happy. I do not know. You may be right, she might be just acting.
Anna - Who do you think will be the one to start the change? Montag?
Kinsey: Don’t you think that if we didn’t have all this technology and books we would still find other ways to educate ourselves? In every society there are people who are not happy with the way that society is.
Kailyn- to feel happy, i need to feel full. In this society, they don't fill themselves with anything- the tv shows are junk with no fill, and they are not actually happy.
Kinsey: I think there are just as many, if not more.
Alison - You have to WANT to be happy to be able to find happiness in something.
Caroline - I think that you don’t' need knowledge to feel emotion. What I meant to ask in my question is: would you rather die than live in a world like 451's?
Nick- Totally. It's like, happiness can only be achieved if you are happy of your own choice.
Kinsey- I would certainly view it the same way. But I can see where the people who started this society were coming from. It's kind of like stem cell research. Sure, it will cure disease and stuff hopefully, but I it also thought that it is possible to do things like choose how the "build" your child. Choose their eye color, etc. That is like giving up the good type of difference (people's individuality) to get rid of the bad differences. I think this book is predicting the future still, just in an exagerated way.
Caroline- I'm not saying that these people don't experience sadness. I'm saying that they deal with their sadness better and learn from it to get through it quicker. Plus I think that you get to a point where you are so happy the little thing that used to make you sad don't affect you anymore.
Kailyn- How do we know that they are not happy?
ziven: if i had to live in a society where books were outlawed i would keep books until i got caught in which case i would take the same path as the old woman and die with the books. i wouldn't do this just because of the books but i would be loosing a lot more than books.The books are burned inside the victims house and all teir posesions with the books. So when the books are burned the victim basicly looses their life even if they are still breathing.
Allison- that is their own problem because if they can't find atleast a bit of happiness in everything, they need to change their outlook on life. It will make their life so much better.
Katie- Montag is already heading down that path but he will have to find a companion to help him challenge the system. Like in LOF Jack needed followers to help him change Ralph's society.
But how do you know you are happy? Happiness is an emotion, you can represent it but can you define it?
Kristen- Yes that is a good point. In every society people will challenge the system.
Katie: What if someone doesn't want to be happy? There are people that don't want to be sad but yet they are still sad.
Justin: How can things make us happy? Things can only make us happy for a small amount of time.
Katie- I agree that you have to WANT to be happy. I think that the mind is a powerful thing and that if you put your mind to it you can make yourself be, feel, or think anything, including make yourself happy, but are you really happy if you're just telling yourself that?
Inner Circle and Mrs Smith: In No Country for Old Men, it ended with nothing but death, but isn't there things that come out of death? Even life can come out of death in some instances.
Brady- So you are essentially saying "give me liberty or give me death". If freedom is taken out of our society, you are willing to give it all up just to hold that freedom?
Jacob: What if they don't want to find happiness in things? What if they just want to be sad? Or what if they don't know how to find happiness in things?
Kinsey- If you are really happy, why would something that made you sad not make you sad anymore?
Wouldn't you need to know sadness before you know happiness?
Bridget- I can see where your coming from. I think that the people who built this society were trying too hard to protect the inhabitants. I think it just got out of control. What do you think?
Inner Circle: Even in children's short stories, there is substance in what they interpret the story to be. It may not be anything to us, but it means everything to them.
Justin you make a really good point. For instance, if there is a horrible fire, there are little flowers that grow out of the ground after it, and there are happy little fuzzy animals coming back to try to live, even though the fire killed a lot of things.
Justin you make a really good point. For instance, if there is a horrible fire, there are little flowers that grow out of the ground after it, and there are happy little fuzzy animals coming back to try to live, even though the fire killed a lot of things.
Comics aren't informational- in a way. Yes they can tell you information, but usually its just an entertainment thing to make people laugh and be "happy".
Allison - How can you not want to be happy?
Are you saying that the whole populous is depressed?
Brooke - Yes! You need to know what it feels like to be sad so you can actually feel the difference of being happy. I don't know anyone that would rather be sad though like some people have said. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Comics inspire kids to do unrealistic things.
Kinsey- Definately. They wanted to make life easy for the people. I think that is the same goal of many people today. I think that our world tries too hard to make things fair, equal, and easy when it simply can't, or shouldn't be so. It is all a good idea, the question is, how far is too far?
Brooke- Yes I agreee, but it also goes the other way around. You must know happiness to know sadness. But once again, it is different for everyone. So you might know your own happiness but not someone else's.
Brooke- just because her body isn't there doesn't mean she is not there. You got to believe that there is something more to life than just living.
Kinsey and Brooke: The society in the story went too out of control by trying to restrict them too much. If there is 100% restriction, there cannot be any evil. With freedom comes evil, in a way that some people uses the freedom for good, and some use it for bad.
Brooke- Good point. But don't you think that there comes a time in your life where you stop making decisions that made you sad before? yes sometimes life throws us things that are sad that we can't control. But we can make smarter decisions and not get as hurt from them.
Ziven- If i had a choice, I'd choose to die. I don't want to live in a world like that, if I knew what it was going to be like.
But Brooke is sadness and happiness real?
Comic books arent always unrealistic. Aren't there some comics that are just based off realistic humor that really could happen?
Kailyn- I'm not so sure unrealistic is a good word. I think that it is far-fetched. But while they may not be able to fly, they can still be heros. Comic books can put that idea and wanting in a kids mind and heart to be someone's hero. Which, I think is a great motivator in life.
I agree with Sydney because comic books are mostly unrealistic but books are based on experience.
Jacob, what is there that is more to life then life?
Justin- Alot of things come from death. I havn't seen No Country for Old Men, but I have seen Sweeney Todd and it sounds like it's the same in both movies, everyone ends up dieing. In Sweeney Todd, the I guess you could say circle, of killing and death and all of the conflicts from the beginning are resolved. But in most books and movies, doesn't a form of closure come from death?
Also, dont comics show you something there is not much creativity.
Ziven: If I had a choice, I would live so that I could change it. If you died for no reason, there would be no change. I'm not saying that people's death does not change anything, though.
Ziven: I'm not saying everyone is depressed. People think they are happy and the might be. But no one thinks about what they are feeling. No one truly knows how they are feeling until they stop and think about it.
Justin- Why do you think they were restricting them?
Brian had an excellent idea. A spark is needed to start a fire and an idea- this shows the irony of this whole idea of this utopia based on the burning of books.
Everyone- I'm reading several people's conversations, including my own and I think many of us are coming to the same conclusion. "Give me liberty or give me death" Caroline and Brady both have said they would rather die like the woman with the books than live in a world like that.
Justin- Think about Clarisse, you would rather be the one alive, trying to change it, rather than dying and inspiring others to change it?
Justin- How do you know society want out of control? Maybe this is how they wanted it to become. What if the people voted for laws that would limit their freedom and they really didn't know what they were voting for, they thought it would be good but it ended badly.
Allison- why wouldnt't they want to find happiness? Why would they want to be drug down by dreadful thoughts and try to not find any happiness in anything? Im pretty sure that just about everyone knows how to find the bright side in everything other wise there might be something wrong with that person.
Kinsey: They put the restrictions there to stop evil and make everyone equal, but making everyone equal is evil because it takes away the gift of being unique. If you were like everyone else, how would you feel?
Bridget, that is a good point, but couldnt it also do the opposite, make someone feel that they could never be as good, or hero like?
Nick/Brian- That is an excellent point. It is very ironic how they are using a spark to destroy things that might spark brilliant ideas.
nick- Definately. And in a way, wasn't it the fire and the burning of the books that helped to spark Montag's fire? He is thinking because of all the books he has burned. Are the firefighters more suseptable to having their thought sparked by the fire?
Kailyn- Are any emotions real?
What is real?
In response to "Give me liberty or give me death, I think the only people who are thinking this are the people who have seen more and felt more through reading books.
Kailyn - But I don't really think kids are that sad. They tend to believe that they can be anything and do anything they want. That's what is so great about childhood.
bridget: i would probably live without freedoms. I was trying to say that once all of the books are burned everything the person had is gone, they don't have a house, their mortage bills are going to sky rocket, then they will be in debt and won't be able to take out a loan because they would have terrible credit, and they would just be put in complete turmoil. It is kind of hard to be able to want to live when you are in a hole that there is know possile way to get out of.
Justin- I would feel terrible being like everyone else. Its my uniqueness that I love. But I agree with your point. They were trying to make eveyone equal. Kind of like what they were doing in Harrison Burgeron.
Brooke: That is a really good question. Really, what are emotions and why is technology the source of their absence?
THen if we would rather die then live in a society like this, is there no more value to life then knowledge and love. What about being able to walk and feel a breeze, doesnt that give value to life, even though minimal?
Will this society change at all?
Kinsey- What decissions can be made to control how we feel about something?
Brooke: It is true, some people want to be controlled and lose freedom. If you could have the time of your life and endanger yourself, or be safe and not get injured at all but lose some or all your freedoms, which would you choose? Some would choose one, another would choose the other. Everyone has different likes and dislikes.
Kailyn- Definately. We seem to all be seeing a lot of opposites that must exist together in the world. hapiness and sadness, peace and war. Without one the other cannot exist. So, anything that does one thing can also do the opposite. We are also talking about the fire. It can burn down ideas, or spark them. The world is composed of opposites.
Jacob: People might have had so many bad things happen to them that they don't care anymore and just want to give up. If i lost everyone i cared about i wouldn't want happiness anymore. It is possible for people to not be able to find happiness. If they don't want happiness then they won't try to find it.
Bridget- Yes, but the people in F451 are so brain washed by t.v. and other entertainment that they don't think about living.
Alison – How can you lose core emotions to the point that you have to think to feel them? Just because you have no access to knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t feel anything. I think that restricting knowledge is just a tactic of demoralization.
kailyn- there is more to life than living because there is no end to life. You stop living but you dont end there. you go into the hands of god and sit right next to him. How awesome is that? Wouldn't that be ten times cooler than just a dumb old routine of living?
kailyn- there is more to life than living because there is no end to life. You stop living but you dont end there. you go into the hands of god and sit right next to him. How awesome is that? Wouldn't that be ten times cooler than just a dumb old routine of living?
Brooke, I dont know what is real. Which is scary. Reality lies within thoughts, but are thoughts real?
So Katie, you were never sad as a child? Ever? I think that children experience more emotion than most adults because adults try to repress their emotions.
Kinsey: Exactly. The idea of being the same would be attractive to some, but to others it would be complete torture.
Carol - Yes. Anna and I were talking about that before. We believe that whether the changes are major or minor, the society is bound to change. I think that Guy keeping the book and starting to feel differently about all this burning is forshadowing that the society will begin to feel the same way.
Ziven- The same idea is in Harrison Bergeron.
Does anyone have any questions for the inner circle?
Brooke- Have you ever made a stupid mistake that got you into a lot of trouble and then you feel so stupid and sad because you made the mistake? Well if you have, like me, then there comes a point where you learn and stop making those mistakes.
Brady: To live in a society that does not allow you to feel anything would be death in itself. As Emily Leighton said in Iron Jawed Angels : "In prison or out, American women are not free." I think that if you take away feeling, it is like death, but you would be continuously dying, whereas, if you die once, you're free.
Caroline, yea kids can get sad and stuff too you're right but when they want to do something, they usually believe that they can. What do you think?
Jacob, then what is life, if we live after we die, which is the opposite of life? I am not saying I disagree with you, because I dont it just seems like a strange comment.
Allison- It's not the idea of seeking happiness, it's more the outlook on life that has to do with.
Justin- What if there was a large war and people decided that they could not coltrol themselves and they boted for all of this to happen and they just wanted to have limits so they would not lose control and kill everyone else.
Katie: Little things can change society, like you said. For example, the amendments that are here in Colorado are thought to be little changes, but it could change everything.
Katie- I agree, I think that they are way more imaginative and they don't let their emotions get to them as much, and they do believe in themselves.
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