Thursday, October 23, 2008

Fahrenheit 451 Fishbowl 41-68 P.2

271 comments:

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carolynf2012 said...

I want to bring up the point that Captain Beatty says that to make the people happy that they are burning certain books. Did anyone else find this slightly ironic?

bayleyk2012 said...

Carolyn- why yes, but he says just certain books. Which books did they not burn?

carolynf2012 said...

Okay, well I mean like, do you think that it is ironic that to make people "happy" when in reality they are stealing people's happiness.

AustinW2012 said...

Well it does state tht they keep certain books. They only burn the ones that make people think and therefore "unappy". They leave the ones with random facts that require no thought.

Laurao said...

About the inner circle. I believe that Montag is empty because he really doesn't realize what is going on around him until he meets Clarisse.

robertc2012 said...

How far has everyone read? I finished the book yesterday. It would be good to know so that we don't give anything away.

Brianc2012 said...

I though that they burned all book not just a few certain ones, but I could be wrong.

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
Yes, I did find this a little ironic. Especially because some people want to keep the books. He is trying to create a utopia...but like what we have said before is that a utopia can't be created because everyone's happiness is different.

carolynf2012 said...

Bayley,
But they are also burning all books now. It started with Uncle Tom's Cabin and now they come to destroying ALL books.

BernardoT2012 said...

I don't think the firemen are being selective, but as Beatty said, society picked all thought provoking books to be burned because some books opposed others. Comic books live though.

mariep2012 said...

People in this story only think know the side of no knowledge. They think that anything that is different or gives information is wrong and scary in a way.

ashleys2012 said...

I found a connection to Hitler Youth in WWII. On page 60 Beatty is talking about making society obey them: "Thats why we've lowered the kindergarten age year after year until now were almost snatching them from the cradle." Did this creep anyone else out?

carolynf2012 said...

Robert,
I myself am on page 73.

Brianc2012 said...

laura- I agree with you that Montag was empty until he got some new ideas in his head from Clarisse.

PeterH2012 said...

Robert- We have read through Page 61, the discussion is about anything within those pages

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
Good point to bring up that it started with Uncle Tom's Cabin. Why did it start with that book of all books?

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura- I totally agree. Guy didn't even think about some of those things until he met Clarisse. She kinda "awakened" him in a way.

BernardoT2012 said...

Laura- Just a question.
What are they empty of? What are they missing and what made it go away?

johnc2012 said...

I have a question

What did Beatty mean when he said ," All the minor minor minorities with their navels to be kept clean.."?

Maxe2012 said...

Laura- I agree but I also think that he wasn't the same as everyone else or not as empty because he wanted to listen to Clarrise before he knew what she was going to say. Other firemen didn't want to listen so they don't know what is going on and they don't want to.

mariep2012 said...

Robert - To be safe, just talk about what has happened in 41-68. That is what we were assigned to do. I praise everyone who read ahead, but let's just stay with the schedule.

Laurao said...

Carolyn, good question. People don't realize that their happiness is being taken away. They are being almost brainwashed. Especially people like Mildred that has a seashell in her ear at all times.

bayleyk2012 said...

Carolyn- thanks for the clarification.

robertc2012 said...

Carolyn- Yes, it is ironic that that is occuring. Beatty probably knows this, but is "muddying the waters" and confusing Montag and others by saying that it is a good thing to burn books.

carolynf2012 said...

Ashley,
Yes, I find that really creepy. I just find it weird and odd that they want to take children from birth. I mean, that is basically brainwash. They don't give the child time evolve with their own thoughts.

austin d 2012 said...

Why does Clairesse depend so much on the tv? Why doesn't she want to know more?

connorm said...

Laura- i agree and an example is that he started looking at the moon again after he met Clarrise so she has definitely opened up his mind to new prospects.

stellab2012 said...

Carolyn - really, they're only taking some peoples' happiness by burning books. Not everyone reads and not a lot of people want to read because they don't want to go against society and the law. But for people who do love books and do like to read, they're taking away not only happiness but a passion and/or love.

TristanL said...

I'd like to go on something about the inner circle just mentioned - Mildred "forgot" to tell Montag that Clarisse had been hit and killed. If it was really four days after she'd been hit, then I don't think she's actually dead. Does anyone else think that Clarisse is alive?

ericak2012 said...

Ashley-
Yes this did creep me out just a little bit. It is kind of like the Hitler Youth. They are trying to create an equal society, but it can't be created, like in WWII it will probably be destructive and eventually collapse.

PeterH2012 said...

Erica- Anything that brings up any conflicting ideas is to be burned. They don't want anyone to discuss, because with discussion comes thinking outside the box.

johnc2012 said...

Robert -

OVERACHEIVER!

I guess I am too. I've actually read the book a couple times and you could say I am pretty far ahead

Laurao said...

John,
Where is that quote?

carolynf2012 said...

Erica,
I think it started with Uncle Tom's Cabin because it said, "white people don't feel good" about it. And apparently the goal of all these governments is to make the people "happy."

bayleyk2012 said...

Ashley- yes I found that really creepy! So your basiclly going to school when your like two. Thats so wrong.

ericak2012 said...

Tristan-
I don't think that she is "dead" either...

ashleys2012 said...

I agree with Laura when she said that Montag is empty because he doesn't realize what is going around him until he meets Clairsse. She was like a wake up call to him. If their society had more of these "wake up" moments, would they be happier? What even is 'happy' to their society?

AustinW2012 said...

Do you think the fact that clarisse gets to montag before he hits the point "that every fireman hits" and beatty talks to him as anything to do with him wanting to think for himself. Maybe the other fireman have hald the talk early on and so hey are closed to new ideas but Montag because clarisse got to him first has potential to think.

Maxe2012 said...

Bernardo- they are missing thoughts and feelings, they are empty of them because the people in this society have become like robots or trained circus animals. When they started to lose their knowledge, they started to be emptied of their feelings and thoughts.

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
You brought up that white people don't feel good about it. What about other races...they could feel good about it.

Brianc2012 said...

tristin- I think that Clarisse could still be alive even though everyone thinks she's dead because Mildred forgot to tell him maybe she's forgeting to tell him she's alive.

robertc2012 said...

Carolyn and others- What a coincidence, I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin for my banned book! It might not have started the book-burning; Beatty just used it as an example. It made people angry about slavery and it covers many different big issues, so that's why some people find it offensive.

johnc2012 said...

Austin-

Don't you mean mildred? Clarisse is not only non reliant on t.v but she isn't alive.

austin d 2012 said...

Definately Ashley, children need to be nutured until a an age were they can be semi-self reliant. Not school at the age of two.

BernardoT2012 said...

Ashley- It's creepy depending on your perspective. It's creepy to most people that kids go to school so young.
I was but in school when I was around 2-3 years old, and in a teaching daycare before that.

People are "snatched from the cradle" even today, just not for the same reasons.

carolynf2012 said...

Stella,
I think that they took away people's happiness, not by taking the books away but by taking peoples knowledge and ideas away.

bayleyk2012 said...

Austin- do you mean Mildred?

mariep2012 said...

Tristan - I'm not sure about what has happened to Clarisse. When you think about the story, she represents the good and knowledge of the world. I think that there is an equal about of evil and good in the world, so I think that if Bradbury agrees, she is probably still around, she was just around to give Montag some ideas about his life, if you know what I mean.

ashleys2012 said...

Baley-

It is wrong because as Clarisse said, they aren't even being acedimically challenged in school. School is something that all kids in this society are blowing off. They simply don't care. The government is teaching these two year olds how to not care when they are two! They don't know thats what they are learning either because they don't know anything else.

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo-
Your sitchuation seems to be slightly different than what is going on in the book. Could what is happening in the book be considered "brain washing"?

carolynf2012 said...

Erica,
But if you are only focusing on certain races and their happiness then not everyone is really happy and thats not the point Beatty was making. They think that everyone will be better off by burning certain books. But you can't make everyone "happy."

AustinW2012 said...

I don't think that clarisse is alive. It's one of those things in books that main characters hit where someone they know dies. Also it is said se was hit by a car and they say the cars can go up to 200mph so I don't think she is alive. By planting her thoughts in montag though her thinking is still alive.

Laurao said...

Connor,
Did you notice that after Montag was told about Clarisses death. Montag seemed to really start to think about what Beatty said. "We know how to nip most of them in the bud, early." So Beatty is saying that they try to get rid of anyone who challenges the system.

bayleyk2012 said...

The people that are talking about Clarisse being dead- Do think that the government might have arranged an "accident" because Clarisse started that actually Think?

stellab2012 said...

Austin- Do you mean that children should not start going to school at age two or three?

Brianc2012 said...

Even if Clarisse is dead she is alive in the sense that she's made Montag think about if burining books is right or wrong.

Maxe2012 said...

Bayley- I think that the government or the firemen did arrange it. However, I'm not so sure that she is actually dead, I think they might just be keeping her away from society.

johnc2012 said...

Laura-

I'm with you. I don't really know for sure, but looking at how Mildred took all the pills shows to me that she is empty of joy.

Also, along those lines, (I'm sorry this was a while back) do you all think that the technology has made them empty too? I mean, Just think about how Bradbury desrcibed the machine that pumped out Mildred's stomach.

ashleys2012 said...

Bernardo-

Thanks for brining it up that kids are still "snatched from their cradles" today. My take on this is that it is OK for this to happen IF the intentions of doing so are ethical. In Fahrenheit 451 their society is defiently unethical. They are snatching these babies to make them "happy." They are feeding them with the wrong priorities that will haunt them the rest of their life.

carolynf2012 said...

Austin D,
I see the point you're making with children in school. There is a time in which children need to learn and develop on their own. Not the government brainwashing kids.

Laurao said...

Bayley,
Did you notice that after Montag was told about Clarisses death. Montag seemed to really start to think about what Beatty said. "We know how to nip most of them in the bud, early." So Beatty is saying that they try to get rid of anyone who challenges the system.

AustinW2012 said...

John and Baylee-
Even though Clarisse is dead she still planted the ideas in Montag's head before she died so he is still able to seee things from a distance and think for himself. Even though she is dead her thoughts and impact on Montag live on.

TristanL said...

Inner Circle - Alex - Great point bringing up V for Vendetta. I've had the same thought while reading the book sometimes. England is a place of order and lies. The news broadcasts lies to make the citizens feel safe. In 451, the firemen burn books that would supposedly upset the citizens. In V for Vendetta, "V" says "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of the people." This is a great point. It shows that the government must be afraid that the people will do something big, that they'll come together and rebel. In 451, people like the Old Lady with books, or Clarisse and her family, they are challenging the system of this distopia. Soon, Montag will be challenging it as well. Montag has been changed by Clarisse, and has shown his change by grabbing the book and taking it home. Then he opened the ventilator grille, showing that he had his own little library, even before Clarisse came. What does this show about Montag?

stellab2012 said...

Carolyn - People's happiness who actually read right? How could people know how ideas and knowledge makes them happy without ever experiencing it? I would agree if it was an unknown happiness, though.

bayleyk2012 said...

Brian- Do you think she'll "come back" or was her role just to get Guy thinking?

austin d 2012 said...

My mistake on the you question yes Mildred John.
Do you think the society can last the way it is for a while? Do you think the people can change?

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
That's exactly what I am saying. You can't focus on one race...so they just burn all. But it started with Uncle Tom because of a certain race. But then they realized that they had to equal it out. Do you think they are just making others sad instead of making one happy? With doing this they have to find something else to do...and this is where Mildred's TV obsession comes in. But could of the things on TV not make everyone happy? What are they going to do about that?

johnc2012 said...

Ok, why does Beatty start talking about sports in the middle of his "Rant" on soceity and on why the firemen burn books?

BernardoT2012 said...

Sorry Ashley, I had a typo in my last entry I meant "put" not "but"

Max- You said they are empty of their feelings and thoughts. So what? You can stop thinking and feeling for a minute and you're still alive in every sense of the word.
These people have lost more than that. They lost their sense of the world around them, they lost their judgement, they lost their ability to connect to another human being (or his thoughts in a book).

They lost their humanity.

alexandriab2012 said...

Ashely- Yes your not alone, changing the age for kindergarden- creeps me out too because it's basically it's ruling the people by the thoughts that we hold and the developement of thoughts.

KyleL2012 said...

Austin-I agree that she is physically not alive, but it sorta does make a point in the book of passing on her ideas to Montag, I don't think it was any accident that she died

Brianc2012 said...

baley- I think she could "come back" and if the government did take Clarisse she could come back.

carolynf2012 said...

Stella,
I think that the happiness disappeared. Mildred claims to be "happy" when she obviously in not. Clarisse was truly happy and she was one of the only ones who actually had this idea of uniqueness and individuality.

robertc2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johnc2012 said...

Laura-

It is on pg.57 last paragraph

TristanL said...

Ashley - You were talking about babies "being snatched from their cradles" to make them happy. What do you think they'd be like if they were allowed to grow before being sent off to school? Would they get ideas? Would they really be any different than if they'd been sent to school immediately? If they were raised in a home where their parents were against books, then wouldn't they grow and be against books?

AustinW2012 said...

Bernardo- they may have lost their humanity but they are still alive.

Maxe2012 said...

Austin- I think that people can change. I think that it would take a lot of time and work to make them willing to change. As long as someone has a strong will to make the people change and as long as they are not taken away or killed like Clarisse was.

mariep2012 said...

Stella and Carolyn,
I think that in the story, the people have never experienced knowledge and the great rewards that it brings, so they really don't know what they are missing. If you had never had chocolate cake before, then you wouldn't know your opinion on it. Yet you keep living, like the people in the story.

ericak2012 said...

Robert-
Please don't give things like that away.
But if you can't tell if she is alive or not even at the end, what does this mean for what type of society it is?

carolynf2012 said...

Erica,
Exactly. They are attempting to make this "happiness" that doesn't exist and it is making some people "happy" and others really angry. But there is always going to be controversy in this world. With out conflict or disagreement things are boring and turn out like F451 and Harrison Bergeron.

ashleys2012 said...

What astonished me was when Montag and Mildred don't remember where thye met. They are husband and wife yet they don't remember where they met. This seemed so careless and astonished me. Mildred remembers every single one of her "family members" and the drama happening to them but doesn't remember where she met her real husband. To forget where you met your "love" is saying something about your priorities.

Brianc2012 said...

max- i agree with you that after a while a society can change, they just need enough support from others.

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
Exactly. But eventually there will not be a society there because of everyone's happiness...and then no one will be happy because there isn't a society anyway...

TristanL said...

Bernardo - You brought up a good point. You said that these people have lost their humanity. This brings up a question: What is humanity? Is it being able to show affection? having a family? being able to think for themselves? being able to tell the truth?

Think about all of this. What does it mean to our society today?

PeterH2012 said...

Outer Circle- What do you think about what was behind the grate? Is that what you thought was behind there? I thought it was like a camera or something... Thoughts?

robertc2012 said...

Erica- Sorry, I deleted the comment.

Brianc2012 said...

ashley- that was a creepy thing that Mildred and Montag didn't know where they met. She knows her TV family, but she doesn't know her own husband, this shows that she is addicted to the TV family.

KyleL2012 said...

Now the inner circle is talking about the extra time in school and i want to make a comment that the reason that i think that they are sorta brainwashing the children in schools and making them not think, which is why Clarrise didn't go to school. does anyone agree?

AustinW2012 said...

I do think that society can change but only if 1. It has to to survive. 2. The leaders of the society want it to change. Since I don't think 2 will happen in F451 unless something catastrophic happens and they have to change to survive I think it will be hard for them to change.

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- I don't think they are really trying to make people happy. These people haven't experienced true happiness and they don't really know what they want. Even Montag, in the beginning, didn't notice that he was unhappy until he really thought about it.

carolynf2012 said...

Marie,
I like your connection to cake. You've never had it before, so you don't know what you missing. But all of a sudden, this NEW and EXCITING person comes in and tells you all the amazing stories and tales about chocolate cake. Doesn't that make you want chocolate cake? To try it? Just to see what you've been missing.

mariep2012 said...

Ashley,
I don't think that she doesn't care about where she met her husband. Because if you remember, Guy couldn't remember either. The society has told them that these virtues like love and family don't matter anymore.

BernardoT2012 said...

Erica- that's what I tried to mention. I said at the end of my situation entry that the reasons are different for early-schooling.

In the book, they are getting them from the cradles so they can't have time to see the world around them. Observation is the mother of thought. By not giving time for childeren, the most observant human beings in the world, to "see" things they don't give potentially world changing thoughts.
The school I went to promoted observation, but it shows that parents are starting to separate from their childeren earlier. In my case it's because of work, but reasons change.

johnc2012 said...

Austin-

I think that society is going to have to change, but there is going to be a huge resitance. I think that it's gonna wind up with somone getting hurt.

bayleyk2012 said...

Ashley- and that effects the rest of society and turns them into Mildred's! And because Clarisse didn't go to school and the type of family she has she's learning to think.

loganc2012 said...

Ashley- I definitely agree. How is it that they can simply forget where they met each other when they are married? What other signinficant things have they forgotten throughout their lives?

alexandriab2012 said...

trisan- thank you I totally agree becaue I think the governement should be worried because w can rebel againist them and be out number the number of people in government.
Do you think that the government should be loved or hated -what do you think?

johnc2012 said...

Ok, why does Beatty start talking about sports in the middle of his "Rant" on soceity and on why the firemen burn books?

mariep2012 said...

Carolyn,
That is EXACTLY what is happening to Guy!!! Clarisse comes along and tells him of all the great things that he is missing and he really wants to try reading books now.

carolynf2012 said...

Erica,
Exactly. We've made good points.

Everyone- Why do Beatty and other "leaders" fear Clarisse? Why do you think they killed her?

ericak2012 said...

Brian and Max-
It can change...
But like Brian said, it needs support from others but with what kind of civilization they are trying to create they might not be able to get people so support it...

ashleys2012 said...

Tristan-

I think this is exactly what their government is trying to prevent. If the babies are being brainwashed and are thinking what other people want them to think. They go along with it because they don't know anything else. They haven't had the opportunity or the thought to challenge the system or be unique and their own person because the governments ways are the only ways they know.

TristanL said...

Peter - Before the ventilator grille was really opened, I thought it was a small stash of books, as it turned out to be. Why else would Montag get so nervous every time he thought about it? Having a camera wouldn't be so bad. I'd like to know why you thought that. It isn't a stupid idea, just one that interests me. Could you develop your thoughts a bit further as to why you thought there was a camera?

bayleyk2012 said...

Brian and Max- If Clarisse did come back how do you think that it would effect Guy and his life?

Maxe2012 said...

Logan and everyone- do you think that it is possible that the government tries to make people forget certain parts of their life so that they lose their feeling about that moment and then don't think about it. Could it be like Harrison and Bergeron only people don't know they have handicaps?

BernardoT2012 said...

Logan- But what is significant to them? To them these golden virtues of our society are gravel to step on.

How do books really affect the human mind so much that it can almost define the virtues of society?
If they are so powerful, why are they gone?

BernardoT2012 said...

Logan- But what is significant to them? To them these golden virtues of our society are gravel to step on.

How do books really affect the human mind so much that it can almost define the virtues of society?
If they are so powerful, why are they gone?

Brianc2012 said...

carolyn- I think that Beatty could be scared of Clarisse because she planted thoughts into Montag's mind and Beatty might think that he could think differently about being a firefighter.

austin d 2012 said...

Ashley- I agree thats strange, but it just shows the lacking of importance of there lives. They live carefree, poinless lives, only pleasing themselves and not doing anything to exceed or improve.The people with books, montag and claireese are the rare exceptions. They accomplish at least some things.

carolynf2012 said...

Max,
Several times in the book Beatty has mentioned that they are making people "happy." But since no one [in their society or ours] knows what true happiness is, happiness is unachievable.

TristanL said...

Ashley - Alex just brought up a good point, which goes along with yours. She said that children are always asking "why why why why?!". The children are taken away immediately so they can be controlled.

Laurao said...

John,
I do think that all of this technology is making them empty. Milred is watching the parlor walls and repeating things to the 'family.' Mildred never knows what is happening.

KyleL2012 said...

Carolyn-i sorta like how you said they killed her when they haven't said why she died but i think that they fear her because she might change people to be against the government. right now the government is controlling the people because they don't think about being against society. but clarrise is making them question what is happening in society and how it has changed and they fear the change she might cause.

Maxe2012 said...

Bayley- I think he would realize that he liked it when she talked about the past and the information she gave him and I think that he would want to learn more. Eventually, he would get angry and probably try to tell other people. Since Montag is a fireman, people might listen to him.

johnc2012 said...

Carolyn-

I don't think that they fear her, or that they killed her. I think instead that She died because it is going to cause a change in Montag. Montag saw in her an innocence, and so the death of that innocence is going to change something.

Laurao said...

INNER CIRCLE-

What is the significance of the name Montag?

carolynf2012 said...

John,
He begins to ramble on about sports because in their society THAT is what is acceptable. THAT is their social gathering.

carolynf2012 said...

Marie,
Exactly.

leslieh2012 said...

Personally, "because i said so" is the worst thing that anyone could possibly say. It really drives me nuts, because i can tell that my patents say that when they know i'm right. Why? what's wrong with asking questions? Why can't grownups ever admit that they don't know, or are *gasp* wrong.

ericak2012 said...

Alex on the inner circle-
You bring up a good point with "the little boy who says why", he would be the society's worst nightmare like you said. Is Clarisse that little boy? Now that she is "gone" is the society going to end up collapsing?

bayleyk2012 said...

Max- you bring up a good point that Guy is a fireman. Would that mean that people would listen to him more? ot that he holds a type of respect?

Laurao said...

Bernardo-

The emptyness is unending, I dont think that there is a specific emptyness.

PeterH2012 said...

Tristan- I thought it was like a special mind-reading camera or something... It sounded a lot more believable in my head... Why did you think it was books?

mariep2012 said...

Max,
I think that in a way, people are hadicapped from birth just because they have always been taught the same thing their whole lives. If someone told you all your life that the world is flat, you would believe it, wouldn't you?? That is what is happening to them. They don't have visual handicaps that can be taken on and off. It has just been pounded into their brains for as long as they can remember.

johnc2012 said...

Carolyn

Yes Carolyn, but it doesn't fit in with what they were talking about. And, he starts talking about the minority stuff again. I don't think it was just because it's part of society

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- that is a good point. I think that people know to some degree what happiness is. I think that the people in F451 don't know much about happiness at all. In our society, I think we have a better grasp on happiness but we still don't really know.

AustinW2012 said...

JohnC-
I agree I don't think the government per say fears her as much as sees her as an annoyance. I don't think they killed her either I think it was just one of those things in the plot that get things moving in the main character.

alexandriab2012 said...

John- I think that he goes on that whole rant of the history of the because he knowns that he's actually thinking and that can't be allowed so he must destroy those thoughts before it gets out of hand.

ericak2012 said...

Carolyn-
I think they fear her because she is like the little boy that says why...

robertc2012 said...

Inner Circle- Yes, creativity is a great thing. In this class, we do fun things like songs and playing out Macbeth. It would also be awesome to do more creative writing. That's important, too. Without it we wouldn't have any of the stories we are reading now.

TristanL said...

Outer Circle - Think about someone you know, any adult you know. Is this person like Mildred? How so, or how not?

I know someone that is kinda like Mildred, she goes with the flow, allows the world to take her wherever she goes. She usually does what she likes. Mildred could do anything with her life, yet she just lets herself sit down with her three TV walls and interacts with her "family".

Laurao said...

Bayley-

I'm jumping in on your conversation. If clarisse comes back I think that Montag would want to learn from her and will want to read more and more books.

bayleyk2012 said...

Erica- if they had gotten to clarisse or the "little boy" before he had effected anyone else then it might die out. But there will always be people to challenge the system. And Clarisse wa able to effect Guy before disappearing.

loganc2012 said...

Bernardo- It is because books are so powerful that they are eliminated from the society of Fahrenheit 451. Beatty said that the reason books had been eliminated was to stop debate, stop conflict. Isn't it sad that there was so much conflict that they had to destroy the humanity. The ablility to think freely, the ability to develop personal opinions.


Why is it that Mildred is so "afraid" when she finds out about Guy's stash?

carolynf2012 said...

John,
I'm going to try to challenge your thoughts here. How can she be dead without dieing? Why do you think they took away her innocence? I have to disagree; I think they took her knowledge away, not her innocence.
Also, I think that people fear change and Clarisse is challenging the system.

Maxe2012 said...

Marie- That is a good point and I agree. But why then do you think Clarisse is different, how come she isn't brainwashed as well?

johnc2012 said...

Laura-

But if mildred doesn't know what is going on, then why did se take the pills in the first place?

KyleL2012 said...

Baley-I think they gave him the position of fireman because 1. it shows drastic change from being a fireman and burning books and enjoying it to hating the burning of the books and being against it. and 2. mantag hoolds a position to make a change in the system, as where clarisse did not.

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura- would that make him want to share it with others and then would he get in trouble?

carolynf2012 said...

Max,
Good point.

ericak2012 said...

Do you remember at the beginning of the book when Clarisse says 'Most people don't like firemen...but I don't mind you' and she is the one that is different from everyone else, she is the one that doesn't want a society like that, yet she doesn't mind the firemen...

Brianc2012 said...

I think that Clarisse was trying to challenge the system and by telling Montag her thoughts before she died, Montag will tell others and it will keep going like a chain.

AustinW2012 said...

Max-
I think that clarisse isn't brainwashed because of her uncle. He tells her all these things and she passes them om to Montag. If montag passes them down the line and so on then they are on their way to change. if the government sees them as a threat before enough people know then they must silence them or face the change.

bayleyk2012 said...

Kyle- how can Guy challenge the system any more than Clarisse could? She did a great job while it lasted.

PeterH2012 said...

Laura-
Montag Name Meaning and History:
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): from Middle High German mantac, German Montag ‘Monday’. As a German name, this was a nickname for someone who had a particular association with this day of the week, probably because he owed feudal service then. As a Jewish name, it is either ornamental or it may have been adopted or given with reference to the day of registration of the surname.

I

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica -
I believe that Clarisse is this little boy because she thinks and that's dangerous, also she doesn't agree with the syterm so she's willing to act against it and think differently which once again is dangerous.

loganc2012 said...

Max- I think Calrisse isn't brainwashed because she didn't go to school. Instead her family encouraged her to think freely, they encouraged her to have her own ideas and her own opinions.

TristanL said...

Peter - I thought it was books because every time something illegal (pretty much books) was mentioned, he would begin getting nervous and sweaty. Then, the dog attacked him, and no one knew why. Montag immediately thought that it had been set to him because of the ventilator grille. Then, when they were burning the Old Lady's house, he picked up a book, and I think he was thinking about the ventilator grille, but I'd have to check. It just seems that throughout the beginning, books had a big connection with the ventilator grille.

stellab2012 said...

Peter - I wouldn't give it away because I've read the book before, but I remember the first time I read this book, I thought that there was some kind of hound or device behind the grate of the house of EVERY fireman to make sure they weren't breaking the law or maybe going against what they're supposed to stand for.

austin d 2012 said...

Bailey- even though there will always be people to challenge the system, as the system gets used more and more, people adept to it and they dont want to change it. There becomes less of a resistance as time goes on.

Laurao said...

John,

We were talking about this in the inner circle. In the book there is a line talking about how there are two Mildreds in the same body but they will bever meet. This inner body is the place that Mildred wants to take the pills.

carolynf2012 said...

So I heard in the inner circle something about routine.
Do you think that sometimes people do things without knowing why?
I think that is what F451 is missing, the thought of "why?"

Maxe2012 said...

Erica- I think that Clarisse realizes that the firemen don't know that what they are doing is bad. I think that Clarrise thinks that the firemen are burning the books because they have been told to and they think that books are bad.

ericak2012 said...

Alex-
When did thinking become dangerous? I mean, when this book was written thinking was good, and it still is today, how and when did it become dangerous?

robertc2012 said...

Inner Circle- Ray
Bradbury didn't even intend to name Montag after a paper company. Isn't that weird?

bayleyk2012 said...

Austin- less risistance but if it gets to bad that can make a big change. Take the American revolution, if we had sucked it up where would we be?

Laurao said...

Peter,

Thanks for that clarification. I knew about the parliment burning and the paper company but I didn't know about the days.

ericak2012 said...

Max-
Yes, I think she does realize this but why don't the firemen? Guy is able to...

PeterH2012 said...

Stella- Thanks for not giving anything away! and that is a good idea!
All- What do you think the hound symbolizes?

carolynf2012 said...

IRONY.
So I find it like crazy and ironic how they always refer to Montag and other fire-burning men as firemen. That is a plural form though. Today we call a single "firemen" a fire FIGHTER. It is quite ironic that they never call Montag and such a fighter.

TristanL said...

Outer Circle - So far, in this book, we've discovered that many people don't think, they just go with the system. I've seen a few people wearing a shirt that says, "Think. It's not illegal yet." How does this tie into the book?

AustinW2012 said...

Baylee- the problem is that in the american revolution the government was across the ocean. In this case it's staring you in the face saying get back in line or else.

ashleys2012 said...

Tristan-

Along with your comment about the comment that Alex made of children today always asking "why?" If you have noticed, this is Clarisse's main question that she always asks; why are you a fireman? why do you listen to me? etc. Clarisse represents the innocence of the youth and that is why Montag says she is like a daughter to him. She gives him that young flame and that youth spirit that no one else has but it is what some one needs to challenge the system.

connorm said...

What tv programs does mildred watch?

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- I think that these people's whole life is a routine. If the routine was different, things might go terribly wrong. There is this movie called Pleasentville and Pleasentville is a perfect society. However, the people don't know anything. Then these two kids are introduced and they don't follow the routines or rules that they are supposed to. The result is that the whole society is turned upside down. All it takes is a couple of people who know what is missing to make society different.

austin d 2012 said...

Carolyn- People are always prone to habits and routine. Like at school, were we go class to class without thought, it's just normal. In 451 it's just normal and routine to get up and watch the t.v every day

BernardoT2012 said...

INNER CIRCLE-
What does conflict breed?

What good comes from Controversy?
Conflicting with everyone seems like a bad thing out of context, why shouldn't they get rid of it?

KyleL2012 said...

Bayley-I think the difference Montag and clairisse was that montag can do something about it, he works with the firemen, and clairrise was just a kid. she didn't have the ability to make much influence as montag does now. and also i'd like to add that montag has seen both sides of the story now, so out of all of the people in the book, he knows most right now and knows what to do most because he has talked to clairrise and is a fireman.

stephaniel2012 said...

Carolyn- I think that this is a really good point, we don't always know why we do things, it's unconscious. Whenever I go into a room, I close the door behind me. I don't know why I do it, sometimes I'm even just in there for a minute, but I just feel like I need to do it. Sometimes, there are just things that we have to do. It's part of something called executive function. When you maintain a consistent schedule, it becomes second nature to you.

robertc2012 said...

INNER CIRCLE- The last happy ad I saw was a Subway 5-foot long sub commercial!

katieh2012 said...

Outer circle-
If Guy Montag had these hidden books at his disposal the whole time, how was he able to go and kill all the ideas and even a woman? Is that why he was guilty about killing the woman at hte house?

bayleyk2012 said...

Peter- thanks for bringing that up. I wanted to talk about that when I was in fishbowl. But I'm not really sure. Is it that fear of being caught?

ashleys2012 said...

Stephanie-

Are schedules and routines always a good thing?

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica-
why do you think that they are burning books? The thoughts behind it. Why else would they have the need.

austin d 2012 said...

Baylee- True about the revolution, but if the people think there lives are as good as they are going to get, then why would they want to change and challenge?

ericak2012 said...

Writing and creating books is currently a big industry, what about when they start burning the books? Many people would lose their jobs...what are they going to do for their new job? With burning books there are going to be many people without jobs, are they going to become like Mildred? But the TV and such costs money and if they don't have a job how are they going to be able to do what Mildred does?

Brianc2012 said...

katie- i was wondering that same thing, and i think that is why he felt guilty for buring the house and the woman.

KyleL2012 said...

Bernardo-I think that conflict usually brings fighting and then to violence. in he book, the conflict might be what the books they burn bring up and they are trying to burn the possible conflicts, like uncle tom's cabin was a book about the conflict of discrimination. something to think about everyone.

Maxe2012 said...

Katie- He tried to save the woman and he didn't kill her, she killed herself. He probably felt guilty because he realized that she was a lot like Clarrise, she was trying to challenge the system.

bayleyk2012 said...

Austin- good point but still, someone in the inner circle said something about, "Clarissa threw a spark onto gas." for Guy. He could still challenge. Is he a government official?

leslieh2012 said...

We've talking about challenging the system in many different lights, bolth positive and negative. What do you think?

ericak2012 said...

Alex-
Yes, but to burn the books they are constantly *thinking* about creating the utopia...

ashleys2012 said...

I still am very suspicious of Beatty. I don't trust him completly. He says that he is against books and yet he is reciting all of these quotes from famous books. These quotes are not something random that he has come up with, they are actual quotes that he has had to read somewhere along the way.

bayleyk2012 said...

Kyle- Nick brought up the point that he has to keep burning books to not burn books.

TristanL said...

Both Circles - Wow, we kinda veered off track with the book. Where did we get the presidential election from? Now we've started talking about conflict and family. This is all stemming from F451! This shows that books can take us away to thousands of places, topics, things, people, or anything at all. (I used an Oxford Comma!) What other connections can we make? We've talked a lot about family and conflict. Is there anything else we can connect to besides this?

Laurao said...

Bayley-

That is a very good point. If we had not stood up for our independence, I have no idea where we would be. So where is this society going?

stephaniel2012 said...

Ashley-
Not necessarily, in some ways, consistent routines can destroy you. For instance, people who have endured severe brain damage attempt to regulate their executive function by forming these routines. It even goes to the extent where their shampoo has to be in the same place every day in their showers, and they can't move their hairbrush or whatever. When that happens though, they fall apart... they don't know what to do. It helps people, but in a way it destroys them too. You know?

BernardoT2012 said...

Katie-
In the beggining did he even remember he had the books? He had a nagging feeling something was there, so why did it come about only after Beatty came?

isn't it Ironic that Beatty comes ONLY after we first see him steal a book, AND only after Guy starts thinking (Clarisse), AND only because he's at home because the old women talked to him, if she wasn't there nothing would have changed. It'd be the normal fire.

What's with the Hound?

bayleyk2012 said...

Austin- they wouldn't you have to know your life is bad. So Mildred could never challenge the system.

loganc2012 said...

Katie- I think the reason he felt so guilty is because this woman died for thinking. She died because she had ideas. Guy and her were the same, he and she both have their own ideas, they both are in a way challenging a system. I think guy is so guilty because he had a part in the death of someone who was like him, because of what made them alike.

AustinW2012 said...

ashley-
I think that beatty has to have read a certain amount in his years because he wants to know what he's fighting. It's hard to fight something and never see it.

ericak2012 said...

Tristan-
The conversation has veered off track onto the election because of how we can connect it to the book.

mariep2012 said...

Ashley,
Maybe Beatty is another person that is trying to get Guy to think about his life. He is bringing up all these things for Guy to think about, like Clarisse.

Brianc2012 said...

ashley- I think that Beatty is a suspicous person. how many books has he read if any or does he just know the quotes from somewhere else.

Maxe2012 said...

Ashley- do you think that Beaty listened to someone similar than Clarisse and has become curious? Do you think that Beaty is smarter than he lets on?

austin d 2012 said...

Baylee- he might be given a spark, but what it comes down to is what will he do with that spark.

katieh2012 said...

Brian and Max- Thanks for answering that. Max- could it also be that he felt as if he was killing himself? he did have his own stash after all...

stephaniel2012 said...

Ashley:
Mistake on my last comment... I meant to say, if something was misplaced or if their routine was altered, they fall apart

TristanL said...

A lot of people are either agreeing or disagreeing. I'm not saying you all are, but a fair number are. Try answering a question with another question! Challenge the System.

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