Hi Smith's fifth hour! I'm a student from last year's fifth hour and I am sitting in for this wonderful fishbowl. Have fun!
What are the walls? Why does Mildred want more walls?
Alrighty! So what big connections did you see so far? I saw that the girls uncle is the pedestrian. I thought that was interesting. What did you guys see?
A.S. -The walls are like huge TV screens
The walls are like giant TVs. Mildred wants more so that she can be surrounded and have the full experience
Is there such a thing as a utopia? What about a one person world were that person makes the rules, is that a utopia?
How do you define the walls?
To answer Kelsey's quesion, I think that it would probably be lost forever. People in that time seem not to care about alot of history so I dont think they would care much about it.
anna sophia: I was wondering that too, are they the same as T.Vs?
AnnaSophia: I was wondering this too. Anybody know?
TV the "palor walls" are a source of mindless action 24/7.
I have a question! Ok so do you think that Clarisse's uncle is old? I think it is kind of weird because Guy Montag doesn't know that firefighters used to put out fires, and Clarisse's uncle knows. I know the question sounds dumb but I was just wondering.
Kinsey- oh my gosh I saw the exact same thing! could the "pedestrian" be based off of this book? or was it written before?
Kailyn-There is no such thing as a utopia. What is a utopia for one person could be the total opposite for another. It all depends on how different people think and feel and act as well as how they are influenced by the rules of the utopia
Bridget - good connection with the tvs. I think you probably have the right idea with Mildred wanting to full experience.
Meg- Clarisse doesnt go to school, so why do you think the uncle would go to work, he probably stays home and does things that he thinks are of value.
Did they burn all books? Because it seemed liked Mildred was reading some sort of script. Is it just my imagination or did they say somewhere in the book that fiction was banned.
kailynw- Another question that relates to that is; can utopia ever be achieved?
Are all of these stories by the same author?
kalei: If her uncle doesn't go to work, how would he support the family?
Do you think Mildred ever loved Guy?
I think that the history was not recovered because it does not really matter to the people, all the people wanted is happiness in life and history is ussually a sad thing like the holocaust.
The walls seem to me to be a more futuristic TV. They are like surround vision and they are all around and the viewer almost gets to interact with it. It is the like the whole show is built around the viewer.
There is a possible utopia if only one person was alive.
HB is by Kurt Vonnegut and The Pedestrian and F451 are by Ray Bradbury
Kaiylin:It all depends on who you ask? Different people have different versions of what they think is a utopia.
A little bit later (like page 50) says something about glass walls. Why are they glass? I thought they were T.V.'s?
I don't think a utopia could ever be achieved. It just seems impossible to me because there will always be people like Clarrise, that are different and want different things. Some of them are bound to stand up for something.
How is a utopia being related to 451?
kailyn-I dont think mildred ever loved guy. it seems like emotion is lost on this world of the future, so I think people are just married because they feel that they should be with someone so they arent lonely, but they dont love eachother
Inner Circle: Why do you think that books were thought to be 'evil'? What made Montag want to keep the books?
But Bridget what if only one person lived in that world, would that be a utopia for that one person?
Kailyn: I think a utopia is defined as the absence of independence and uniqueness. When people attempt an effort at creating a utopia, the first thing that usually goes is independent thoughts, and in Fahrenheit 451, books can shape independence and can manipulate a person'a unique character. I don't think there is such thing as a utopia where one person rules because an attempt at a perfect society has to be a collaborative effort.
Kailyn- I think that perhaps Mildred had grown over the years to love and respect Guy, but not in the same way as people who fall in love before marriage love each other. She does not want to hurt him or do him any harm, but I also dont know how much she would sacrifice for him.
Mildred only loves Guy because he buys her TVs. What a bland mindless relationship. Is this what life has come down to in this book?
What is the relationship between Mildred and Guy? Why do you think?
kristen: i dont know but how does Clarisse plan to get a job to support her family if she doesnt go to school?
leahf- why do you think people would choose utopia over individuality?
So I know people who for them happiness lies in love, if there is no love can there be happiness?
Sydney- The pedestrian and 451 were both written by Ray Bradbury.OuterCircle- What do you guys think is the significance of this connection between Pedestrian and 451? Is he trying to emphasize a point?
Tray - nice vocab word from last week :) But I agree with you. She doesnt really love him for him.
Kailyn- about the utopia. I'm not sure. I guess I would say that in a world with only one person, how could that one person alone achieve what he thinks is necesary? Whether or not that person is okay with being alone, how would they have the resources and help to achieve what is necesary for life, let alone their ideal life.
Inner circle - why is his name Guy does that mean (since it is a word with meaning) something
Bridget I don't think that there is not a utopia, I think that there is not a utopia that has set in stone rules or guidelines it abides by, like you said, its all based on perspective.
I totally agree with jake. All the descriptions are using stone and marble and darkness and rain. All dull and boring things. And very cold and hard.
The people of this society think that books are evil because they tink that the books= corruption. In the book Beuaty says that cat lovers would not like dog books and dog lovers would not like cat books, this would make those people happy.
Kailynw- do they even love there? The book mentioned drunkenness, I would think in this society it would be outlawed.
Maybe Mildred is addicted to those pills. I think that she might have tried to kill herself like Ms. Smith is talking about now. Why would she do you think?
Justin - I think that they have a very strained relationship. They don't sleep in the same bed like a normal married couple and they dont seem to have many deep thoughtful conversations.
In the 1500's, Bible's were burned all across Europe. I think they did this for the same reason as in Fahrenheit 451 because it offended minorities and they wanted peace.
kailyn-that depends on the person. Some people go through life, and never get married, they live alone. But they seem perfectly happy. Some people need love to be happy, but others are self sustained and can get through life without anyone else
It really bugged in this book that they have no funerals does that mena that love has no meaning?
kaeli - well it said that she wasn't accepted by everyone else, so perhaps she won't need to get a job to support her family. but then again she does need to support herself
I agree with you Kinsey.
Kailyn: (second) I think when a person is unhappy with their own life, they can still love, they just cannot love themselves, if that makes sense. I do think Mildred loved Guy, but her feelings about society drove her to the point where she probably couldn't stand it anymore.
I didnt even notice that. But that does tie into this book so far. This civilization is so prototype and average.
Kaeli and Trey: Although I agree with what you said, I have started to wonder why Mildred always forgets things. If she does always forget things, I have started to question whether everyone is forgeting everything, and whether she did love Guy at one time, but just forgot.
Kaeli: I don't really think that Clarisse intends to do anything to support her family. So I see your point, but isn't it the uncles responsibility to take care of her?
Anna - I think that is true. Everyone has a different way of telling the story. It is really hard to know the truth.
Taylor-there is no way that in this world there could be a utopia. Everyone has a completely different idea of what a perfect world could be, so unless, like Brian said there was only one person in this world, there couldnt be a utopia.
Kinsey: I think he's trying to emphasize what he thinks will, or could happen in the future.
But Jake isnt that what factory workers in China do today?
Kaelyn: I think so. In the next portion of the reading, it is said that neither of them remember where they met or why they got married.
Annasophia-I saw the walls as boundaries. She wants more boundaries, and more confinment. They are also full-wall tvs so she wants more television and she wants the television to take over and confine her to the tv.
I agree with Kaeli on the utopia issue. Th.ere is just no way
I dont think that Mildred did not try to kill himself because she is happy and takes joy in watching tv all day. She would definately not want to lose watching tv all day.
* i meant life having no reason
Taylor- I think that there could be an individual utopia.A perfect world for that one person. What they view as perfect. However, I view a utopia as a WORLD of perfection. And if the whole world was perfect, all the people would have to think of it as perfect. Reality is, people are different and no society will ever please everyone.
Everybody- If Mildred consciously tried to kill herself, wouldn’t she remember in the morning or is she ashamed and denies it/doesn’t even recognize it.
Kristen-Im not really sure. There is a possibility that he works, but we dont know all about the world they live in, there is a possibility that you work so you have something to do, and the government gives them food and such. Im not sure though
Thats total untrue Kalie. If you wire someones mind to think something, they will think it. Think about Hitler. He wired kids minds to think one way and they did.
How are the relationships displayed by Bradbury different from what is considered the norm?
Justin - what do you think is the reason that Bradbury made their relationship so strained but the relationship between Clarisse and Guy so unique and growing? Doesn't their seem to be alot of potential between Clarisse and Guy?
meg- it reminds me of Harrison Bergeron. The society forgets things, even the deaths of loved ones. And in F451, it seems that Montag and Mildred forgot how they fell in love.
Kailyn: I think that if there is no love then there definitely can't be any happiness because when you love someone or something, it/they usually makes you happy, so if there is no love there can't be any happiness.
Inner Circle: Do you think Clarisse is the only one of her type?
The way that Clarisse talked made me realize that there are two types of mind set. One is to just say what is accepted, say the easy answer, etc. whereas another is to always think about things. I find that when I think about things, i tend to have a lot of ah- ha moments, and thats what builds people's ideas
Kailyn- I think that there definitely can be happinesss without love. Picture someone who just got out of a relationship, they are sad and unhappy, because they no longer have love. But once that person gets over it, they still don't have love, but they can definitely still be happy.
I think that some people have feelings and do love in this town, but some people get married for different reason which may or may not be wrong.
What happened to Clarisse?
Trey-just because their minds are wired doesnt mean that in their hearts they are happy. A utopia means that it is a perfect world, which means everyone is happy. In the pedestrian, the people werent happy, they just didnt know any better
The inner circle brought up a good point. Why do people get married in a society like this? If they do not love each other then what is the point. I think they do it because it is thought to be "right" and whether they love the person or not, humans take comfort in knowing that they do not have to go home alone. People as a whole dont want to be alone. The company and the idea of having someone you can depend on is a good thing, at least in a world like that where people seem to be without close friends. So they may not be in love, but does that really mean that they dont appreciate having each other?
Sami- What do you see that has been predicted correctly between them?
If Mildred really tried to kill herself, wouldn't she be aware of the technology that was used in bringing people back to life in the book?
Sami: You said there if there is no love, there is no happiness. Do you think that maybe TV's make them happy?
The inner circle brings up a great question... Do you think the characters were raised in this kind of society, or were they raised in a different kind of society, and they just don't remember?
Kinsey: I was thinking that too! The relationship between Guy and Clarisse is becoming much more than just two people who talk everyday.
I agree with Annasophia. If a mindless figurative corpse can commit suicide what else could these supposed Tv addicted people do?
As Jacob brought up... Do you think anyone is challenging the system here?
Kinsey - I agree with you about Clarrise and Guy. They already seem closer than Guy in his wife don't you think?
Yes, I agree with bridget
About what the inner circle is saying- Isn't happiness a state of mind? Would we really apprecitate the sunny days if there weren't rainy ones also? I think that it's not the things that make us happy, it's not having the bad. We need something to compare the happiness to.
Maybe Mildred didn't mean to kill herself, she is just numbing herself.
Kalei: Earlier, I remember Guy talking about how buying the TV's cost him a lot of money so that made me think that they still needed money to take care of themselves.
How do these quotes connect:"One time, as a child, in a power failure, his mother had found and lit a last candle and tere had been a brief hour of rediscovery, of such illumination that space lost its vast dimensions and drew comfortably around them, and they, mother and son, alone, transformed, hoping that the power might not come on again too soon..." (Page 7)"'Play the man, Master Ridley; we shall this day light such a cnadle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out.'" (page 36)
Brigit: I agree and also before people married for love they had arranged marriages, where, sometimes, the bride and groom meet for the first time on their wedding day.
Caroline- I do not think a person can be happy without love. A person may be sad getting out of a relationship then get over it. But through it all they still have some family or co-workers or friends that love them. Think about the depressed suicidal people in movies and stuff. Most of the time they seem to be alone. Without friends or family or any connection the world.
If they are always burning books how do they keep finding them?
Caroline, good point. When youre sick, you arent happy. but when you feel better, you are all of a sudden happy because you appreciate being healthy. If life were just monotony, no one would be happy
Sami and Katie- It seems like they might have a relationship bigger than just friends or two people talking on the street.
Inner Circle- you were saying that how can these people be happy and everything and thats a reason to back up her choices as labeled as "suicide" but if they go through that every day then I don't think they would know any better and right now as I am writing this Brooke is explaining the exact same thing. But anyways, yeah I am not sure if they have been living this way for such a long time that they still classify it as unnhappiness because how do they know what happiness is anymore.
Bridget- I think they get married out tradition. It's something that has always been done, and they continue to do it without thinking about it, like they don't think about anything else.
Kailyn. Good point. I think that could be a great possibility
Kristen: Thats a good point. Maybe they have to spend money on things that they want that arent necessary for living
Leah: I don't think she was awake during the stomach pumping and such. She didn't know what had happened the next morning.
Mildred would change if another Clarrise came to her and asked important questions to direct her to the question,"are truly you happy?"
Also, another quirk in Guy and Mildred's relationship is that they don't sleep in the same bed. I find that odd, because usually like nowadays, when couples don't sleep in the same bed it means problems
Brian: Think about how many books there are in the world right now. If people were hiding books, then it could take firefighters forever to find all of them and burn them.
Kailyn: That is an excellent point! Life there sounds so dull that I would want to numb myself too.
Caroline: I agree, but is it possible that people can appreciate sunny days without experiencing rainy ones? Some people are just happy that they are actually survived the night. I once talked to this homeless man in LA and he talked about everyday being a struggle for survival.
Brian - because there are so many books in the world and people may keep bringing them in from other places because they love to read so much.
Clarisse is challenging the system in my mind. She does not go to school and she does what she wants. The whole sociey is always in a routine and Clarisse has no routine.
Trey - these "mindless people" could be capable of living without life.
Caroline- Very good thought. I was kind of thinking the same thing. That is certainly true. It is like some things we do today. Do you ever notice how sometimes people say "How are you?" but dont stay to hear the answer. It is just something we say, but doesnt really mean anything. But do you think that that could grown into more? They get married because they are supposed to, but they end up depending upon that relationship.
So far you know no one has mentioned the Hound. That thing was really freaky how it wasn't alive and it had a probiscus and weird insect legs. Doesn't anyone else think that is foreshadowing?
Kaeli: Do you think, though, that the society thinks they need T.V's?
Katie: Does that mean this is only in America?
Hannah: To start with the obvious, they both talk about candles, but the deeper meaning, I think, is that they both use candles as a beacon and something that takes away the darkness. The candles symbolize the coming of a new tomorrow, or just the coming of something.
Bridget- You bring up a good point about not being happy without any love at all. I guess it's true that there cannot be happines without love
Brian - good thinking with challenging the system. I think you are absolutely right
What is Mildred and Guy's 'problem?' What do you think?
Kailyn: I completely agree. Just because a person is living does not mean they have "Life"
Brian - that's a good question. We should see what the inner circle thinks?
Question- why does the dog pick out Montag? Does it sense change in a person like regular dogs?
samis- Great answer! So do you think Guy is a candle? Clarisse? Did the old woman light a candle in Guy that will never go out?
The scary thing is is this so far off? I know someone who numbs herself with drugs, and has become addicted to the life, I mean its not a society yet, but there are people.
Meg: They may think they need it, but the government probably knows that they really dont need tv so they make them buy the tvs for themselves, most likely so they can make money
Justin - I think that they don't love each other. You can stay with someone forever and not be happy. They are just not very connected because they are not in love.
Justin- Really good point. It is like the utopia thing. What is happiness? It is different for everyone.
Do you guys think that Guy will eventually challenge the system, or only Clarisse?
Caroline- you bring up a good point with no love means no happines. But do you think it has to be people that someone loves? Perhaps someone is happy in this town because they love their tv, or something else like that. what do you think?
Justin - Well maybe the problem is that all the excitement has worn away. like you know how you'll get a new puppy or kitten, but as soon as they grow up and get fat, there just another thing hanging around the house. Maybe theyre just bored?
Justin- I see your point, but the homeless man in LA was happy that he was surviving because he didn't think that he was going to. He was sad because he thought that he might not make it through the night, and then when he did he was happy. I'm not saying that just experiencing the unhappiness makes someone happy, but it does help.
I think its just like Harrison Burgron. Everything simply cannot be equal. There has to be someone who is better.
If they destroy everything that contradicts another person or their beliefs, wouldn't everything be destroyed?
I heard Ziven ask what this book criticizes. I think it sometimes criticizes when you search for a utopia, things that are more important than equality are lost.
Meg - I think Guy will eventually challenge the system. He is already starting to think that he needs to start doing something. He obviously likes books and I think he will want to change things.
Megg- I think that Guy is too afraid to challenge it alone so I think Clarisse will have to help him.
megg- another question to go with that: Does Guy have "what it takes" to challenge the system? what is required to challenge the system?
I found a connection between the pedestrian and Farhenheit because the pedestrian was a writer and now in Farhenheit there is no writing because there are no books.
Great answer Caroline. I agree completely.
there is no such thing as a utopian society because at least one person challenges the system sooner or later.
Kinsey: I think that he correctly predicted that machines and technology would become more and more a part of our lives. Just think about your everyday lives, how much of it could you not accomplish, or make it very hard to accomplish without technology.
love [luhv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, loved, lov·ing.–noun1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
Kaeli: But that's the point. It was the government that established that T.V. was going to be how the society was run. What do you guys think about only learning the arts (Acting, etc..) in school instead of history and math...
Katie- I was just using people as an example. If people love something else, their tv or a pet for example, then they love it, they are happy. But sometimes it gets to the point where you don't appreciate what you have anymore, and you begin to not love the thing anymore
Katie- I do not think that a person simply has to love something else to be happy, but rather they have to be loved by something else. And reality is a TV cannot love back. A friend, a family member, even a dog can however. Some people are extremely lonely in life. They may be passionate about some sort of hobby, but does that mean they are happy night after night doing that hobby alone?
Thank you annasophia for changing to the dog. I don't quite know. Perhaps it can smell books? I don't know or maybe hes makeup is similar to a targeted person.
Kelsey brings up a good point in the Inner circle. For equality, you must treat everyone the same. No one should be better than anyone else. But I think in some ways equality could cause even more problems than we have now.
I would way rather live in this world then the world in Harrison Bergeron. But I guess in F 451 thoughts are looked down upon or thought as weird. and in harrison Bergeron they forcefully make people not think. The difference is that in 451 people make a decision to not think and be mindless, but in Harrison Bergon the gov. forces them to all to be "equal"
Inner Circle: Why has technlogy become so important in our lives? It makes us lazier, as it is shown in Fahrenheit 451.
annasophia- So you would be okay with a lack of literature and free thought?
Sami - I agree. I mean even now in class, this class would not be possible if it weren't for technology. We are all on laptops and not having very much human connection. Is this what Bradbury feared would happen?
Bridget and Carol - I agree with both of your comments. Being loved makes happiness MUCH easier to achieve. No matter what it is.
I think that the book definitely does critisize utopian society.
But we can always seek peace Zibin. That doesn't mean we have peace. It means we are seeking it.
Meg-I think the government knew exactly what was going to happen if they made everyone love tvs, and I think they wanted that to happen. They wouldnt have to deal with as many people breaking the law, and there would be much less conflict. They knew it would make their lives easier
annasophia- Also, do they really have the choice to be mindless?
Katie- Does equality have to be equal? I think that women and men can have fair treatment for example, but not have everything the exact SAME. All people are different, so things can be changed so that both sides benefit EQUALY, without being treated the SAME.
Hannah- I think that he will have to grow in his understanding of the society, and "how" to rebel, to challenge the system. I think he will need some help. I don't know who will help him though, because later on "Clarisse is run over by a car."
Brian- I think that someone said in the inner circle that all the books contain all the history and knowledge of the world and I think it would take a long long time to destroy it all after this whole world has spent many many years gaining all the knowledge and making new discoveries. So if this act was to ever realisticly happen it would take a very long time.
What has technology done for us? list the points of good and bad. Does one outweigh another?
Yes i agree with annasophia. In 451 they can CHOOSE to think or not think, but most people just don't because its just "the thing to do" and that kind of average person has a fear of rejection. Which is why everyone just clumps together
Justin - I think that some technology is a good thing, like all the technology that has expanded our learning and helped cure diseases. But other times technology can be useless. I mean why watch television when you can read a book? I think in little doses technology is good but we get addicted to it.
megg - So one of the important aspects to you of challenging the system is someone to help you? How does this relate to Macbeth?
Bridget - How can everyone be equal when they aren't treated the same? Help me understand what you are thinking please:)
Oh! Thats a great point. What would Bradbury think of what we are ingaged in right now. Would he consider this human to human talking.
The book criticizes a lot of things. It is an exageration of possible problems that could pop up.
Opinion plays a big role in almost everything.In an attempted utopia people with strong opinions will challenge what is happening or go their own way. Conflict arises from peoples different opinions. Also, if no one had different opinions there would be no change.
Justin: I think that the T.V. is so much of part of their lives that it can't possibly make them happy.
Kaeli: So do you think that the government thought that T.V.'s were necesary?
sydneyr- Are people choosing to be mindless to fit in in today's society? In this school?
Sydney- I think people clump together because that is how we were made. People have always, all throughout history wanted to conform. They have struggled for acceptance. That is just human nature. Just like how some animals travel in packs and some live alone.
Hannah- i think that people dont necesarily choose to be mindless, they just kind of shy away from something that takes effort. They kind of go with the flow, and never stop to think. So maybe they just choose to not be individuals, because its easier
They can choose to think but what if they brought this on themselves.
What do you guys think has come true from Bradbury's predictions in the pedestrian and 451?
Do you think, by the text of 451 that Bradbury was looking forward to this kind of future because of the "equality" or fearing it?
Meg: no i dont i think that they know that TVs arent necessary, and they just wanted the world to think that TVs are necessary. They know how it really is
The book exaggerates many things, but some things are quite accurate. Don't you think that some people in our world right now is overly addicted to things, like TV?
Katie- I think what bridget is trying to say is that the governement wants everyone to be as equal as possible, even if they can't be EQUAL
BRIAN - I think that you are right. Pretty much every discusion or debate that we have in school comes down to that it's all about perspective. Everyone thinks something different so there is no way everyone can agree.
Meg: he was obviously fearing it. If he looked forward to it, he would make this society seem amazing and happy, which he didnt do
Hannah: I think Guy isn't a candle yet but he is going to become one. People like Clarisse and the old women are the ones that are making him a candle and they are also the ones who I think are going to be the ones who will light the candle.
Caroline - I see. That makes sense
Meg - I think that he was fearing it. I think he is making the point that equality is not always a good thing. Equality ruins individuality. What do you think?
Katie- What I meant was rather than equal treatment, equal benefit? Think about dogs and cats. You could treat both equaly by giving them both a litter box. But would that work for the dog? Would the outcome be equal for both? No, just the treatment. Instead, you give a dog the yard they need and the cat the litter box they need. Neither one nicer in comparison than the other. The treatment is not equal, but the outcome is. Both end up equaly happy. Didnt you like that anology? :)
Inner circle - "He who controls the past, controls the future" -1984
Then how do we now that the history that is taught is real? No one from Franklin's time is alive anymore to correct us.
Everyone always says addictions are bad. Its true. Even an addiction to doing good is bad because eventually you will die because you will give away all your food.
Equality is great. until a certian point. In both Harrison Bergeron and F 451, they stepped over this line. Could this, however, be possible in our world?
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