Monday, October 27, 2008

Fahrenheit 451 68-91 Fishbowl Period 2

268 comments:

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robertc2012 said...

What does "Denham's Dentrifice" represent? Have you ever seen advertising like that?

PeterH2012 said...

Why Do We Read?

bayleyk2012 said...

Robert- it was just repetitive right? Ya we were in spanish class watching spanish commercials and they repeated one commercial like three times. Talk about annoying

Maxe2012 said...

Peter- We read for knowledge and because some books are exciting. People are curious and they want to learn things and that is what reading is for.

BernardoT2012 said...

robert-the dentrifice (a.k.a toothpaste) is just showing how in this society everything, even advertising, is so imposing you can't think about the lillies, or in other words things with meaning.

bayleyk2012 said...

Peter- We read for so many different reasons. I can read for fun because it can take us anywhere and you're still at home. But you can also read to learn like a more informational read or a news article.

ericak2012 said...

Peter-
Why do people write?

TristanL said...

Robert ~
I think Denham's Dentrifice isn't really an advertisement, but a way to get the people to think a certain way. Montag was struggling to concentrate, trying to "think of the lilies" (an excerpt from the bible? Can anyone confirm that?) but the "Denham's Dentrifice" was taking his thoughts off track and confusing him. My suspicions were confirmed when Faber showed Montag some ear buds to block out the noise of the "advertisement".

stephaniel2012 said...

Peter asked: Why do we read? There are a varity of reasons why, because there's a variety of books. We crave to know more and we crave to experience life in another person's point of veiw, or because it makes us think about something in a different way. there are a ton of reasons why... it's just, what would we do if we couldn't read?

Laurao said...

Robert-

It is repetitive. Denhams Dentifrice is an advertisement. Have you seen the head on commercials? It is something like that.

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
Fire or friendship;we know which one is safer, but which one is worth the better value?

PeterH2012 said...

Max- Don't you think books have other purposes than just knowledge?

mariep2012 said...

I think that reading is for getting us to really think about what has happened and what we don't want to happened. Isn't that the point of 451? Bradbury is trying to tell us that if we don't change, horrible things could happen in the future.

robertc2012 said...

Just imagine riding the lightrail, enjoying yourself and looking out the window, thinking deep thoughts and then...
Denham's! Dentrifice! denham's dentrifice denham's dentrifice D-E-N-H-A-M-S-D-E-N-T-R-I-F-I-C-E !!!!
I find it funny that some people on the subway actually enjoy it and tap their feet to it.

Maxe2012 said...

Erica- People write because they want to share their knowledge with the world. They want everyone to know how creative they are and sometimes, unfortunately, people write because they want money and they know people read.

katieh2012 said...

Erika- people write so people can read. We document our thoughts and actions for future reference.

chelseac2012 said...

Peter -
To read is to open new ideas and different views on topics. When I read, I read to enjoy a book and see the different things that could happen in the world. People have different reasons for reading; a good book, they have to go class, to gain knowledge from other people...
To read is to gain ideas and aspects from different people.

BernardoT2012 said...

Peter- we read to see.
Books are a compilation of the observations of life found by other people. They show the pores of life.

Like Faber said, it doesn't have to be books, that's just where we put it, but the same thing could be in the parlors. The problem is that people don't want to see the detail, the imperfections in the face of life, they want a perfect doll. People don't want to see anymore.

stephaniel2012 said...

Erica:
I write to set my thoughts or events in my life in concrete. I write so I remember things or ideas that I have. So, I write to archive with the sole reason to go back someday or sometime and read it again. I write so that I remember.

TristanL said...

Peter ~
I shall answer your question with a second: Why don't people read? Some people say they just don't like to read, but is that because they haven't tried it, perhaps? Maybe these people who "don't like to read" haven't tried to really read, or were distracted from the story. Children usually love to hear stories at night, before bed, so why do some grow up and "not like books"? Or perhaps they haven't read a certain genre, and maybe that is a genre that they like.

Maxe2012 said...

Peter- yes there is a certain amount of fun in reading books because they take you away from your own life and let you watch someone else's.

robertc2012 said...

Tristan- It's both an advertisement and a distraction combined. Two-in-one combined!

Brianc2012 said...

i think some people read books for fun, and not just for the knowledge that the books hold.

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica-
people write because it's a way to describe your self and to get your feeling out without being destructive.

carolynf2012 said...

Why are the people in F451 so blinded that can't the substance and greatness of the books?

ericak2012 said...

Max-
True, people do write for money but also there are some people that just WRITE. They do it because that's what they do, just like some people do sports, theater, etc., it's just what they like to do.

PeterH2012 said...

Bayley- So if books can take us anywhere and still keep us safe at home, when was the line drawn that kept us from going places? When did books become "Bad"

austin d 2012 said...

Peter- We read for our personal intrest and from those intrests our ideas are born.

mariep2012 said...

Erica - I like where you are coming from. I think that people write because a)they are gifted with the talent of writing, and b) they are trying to get something across to other people. Bradbury is trying to get across to the readers that if we don't try to do something different with our lives, then it is going to end up bad for us, like in the story.

chelseac2012 said...

Erica –
People write to expand their ideas. People write so they are heard. People write simply because they love it.

carolynf2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BernardoT2012 said...

What is so IMPORTANT about BOOKS?
why does it have to be in a book?

johnc2012 said...

Robert-

I think, yes it is advertising, it is more than that. It is like in prisons how they play music endlessley to break down prisoners into confesing to their crimes, except in this way it is ingraining the memory of Denham's Dentrifice into their minds. The people enjoy this probably because they have heard it thousands of times, and so its a part of them and their daily routine on the subway.

ericak2012 said...

Alex, Stephanie, Max-
Exactly. People write for reasons such as those and people read for other reasons. People would still write if people didn't read, but if people didn't write, others wouldn't read.

jays2012 said...

what is the sieve and the sand represent?

carolynf2012 said...

The government is here to do what is best for the people. It's "by the people, for the people, and from the people." Is this how the government is presented in F451? In our world today?

PeterH2012 said...

Ericka- We write to be heard! And we write to learn from the feedback we recieve.

Brianc2012 said...

Erica- i think people write because some of them want to share there ideas, or just to write to have fun.

KyleL2012 said...

To Peter and Erica-you might want to ask why we are reading this book, what do we get out of books? why did the wuthor write this book, why are we reading it?

BernardoT2012 said...

Jay- what happens when you put sand in a sieve?

alexandriab2012 said...

Marie-
Do you think that Mildred would even try to read one of the books that Guy stole?

stephaniel2012 said...

Bernardo: I like your comment about how we read to see, expecially with the connections to the parlor. People are visual. People like seeing "pretty things". And you're right, that the people in 451 want something that isn't flawed. They don't want to see that.

mariep2012 said...

Bernardo - I think that what we are trying to say is that any text that makes you think and isn't just "brain candy", then it falls under of books.

sammiet2012 said...

Peter- We read because we want to escape from life. If you are reading you are in a way taking a trip to a place where your problems can't follow. I know that books help me to relax because it is calming to me to think that you know what is going on in one persons life for once because you can read to find out more, but in real life you can't read your own story faster to find out what happens next you have to wait and be paitiont. You can't speed up time.

Laurao said...

Bernardo-

The importance of books. Or maybe the symbolism of books is the knowledge that comes with the books. Every book has a lesson or a moral and that means that there is knowledge.

PeterH2012 said...

Austin- So you think that the ideas are the reason the government got rid of books, not the books themselves?

bayleyk2012 said...

Peter- When the government started to take away that love of reading. Or they started to say that it was bad.They made that reading bad instead of good.

TristanL said...

Erica ~
There are many reasons people write. It cannot always be explained. Sometimes I find myself writing random things, and then finding it fold into a story, but I can't always say where it came from. People can be happy, but write dark things, or dark, and write happy things. Writing is infinite. I'm sure that the world, in the next few years, will come up with more words for more things that are found, and that these words will help write a massive amount of stories.

katieh2012 said...

Carolyn- the people who are blinded to the books are the ones who grew up in that type of society or willingly went along with the lack of books. notice how the professors who know about books are all "dead or ancient".

ericak2012 said...

I brought up the question 'Why do people write?' as a counterpart to Peter's question. All of you seem to have an easy time answering my question in many different ways while for Peter's question, everyone had a very similar answer. How is it you had an easy time answering why people write, but not why people read?

alexandriab2012 said...

Erica-
I know that in this type of world your not allowed to read, however are you allowed to write?

Maxe2012 said...

Erica- If people write when no one reads, then they enjoy writing and they are possibly writing to take them away from life. They can make a story and be pulled away from life by their own story. They are probably similar to the man in the pedestrian who writes even though no one reads.

KyleL2012 said...

Carolyn- the government is yes, by the people for the people, but who says what is right for the people. the government. the government can say books aren't right and the government can say all these things. all the people can choose is who makes these decisions.

johnc2012 said...

Bernardo-

That's just what Faber said on pg 82 "Its not books y isn't you need. It's what was once in books." These peolpe have lost the knowledge that was in books. The same thing could be broadcast on the t.v.'s, but it isn't. Its not the physical books they are missing

PeterH2012 said...

Sammie- So why did the government get rid of books if they help us forget, or escape our problems?

nickb2012 said...

Books became bad when they made someone unhappy, a depressing book can make you unhappy, but this means that you will later realize how happy you can be. If you are always happy, then there's no way to tell if you are truly happy. My point is- there has to be bad for there to be good

leslieh2012 said...

Why does Guys wife's friend cry when Montag reads poetry?

chelseac2012 said...

Alex –
If you’re allowed to write, wouldn’t there be more books?

stephaniel2012 said...

To all talking about why we write:
If we write to learn and we write to record and we write to entertain, then why do people write books that become banned? Why do people write about some of the most terrible things in the world?

austin d 2012 said...

Peter, Bailey= Books I doubt books ever went bad, I think our rights were interpretated differently so that books ideas were bad, causing change in the government. Books cause thinking and they allow thoughts of joy and peace. They keep morality in check by keeping good thoughts and bad thoughts going through your head. People then know right from wrong.

mariep2012 said...

Alex - I think that is Mildred actually really tried to understand and analize the books, then maybe she could. The problem is that she has never actually thought about anything for herself. She has always been told things her whole life and has never thought to try and think for herself for once.

Brianc2012 said...

alexandria- I was wondering that too. It never said you weren't allowed to write, but you don't see anyone writing. I think that no one is writing because no one will read what you write.

TristanL said...

Peter and Bayley ~
Did the government really take away the books? I think that Beatty's story about the people burning the books, the people taking away the books for happiness, if a lot more accurate. The people aren't controlled by their government, the people control their government.

Maxe2012 said...

Kyle and Carolyn- That is the problem, people just choose a person and if the person lied or changed and did things the people don't want, the people can't do anything until the next election. That is four years of leadership that the people thought they wanted but didn't.

robertc2012 said...

Tristan, about the "lilies of the field" line, yes it does exist in the bible. Matthew 6:28
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin

ericak2012 said...

Nick-
You brought up how you have to have a little bad to know what good is. You also said that unhappy books are bad. If they were all happy would you know what a pleasent book is?

PeterH2012 said...

Max- So we read to have a little fun, but mainly to learn or escape our problems? If books cause such a problem in society today, and in 451, doesn't there have to be something else!

BernardoT2012 said...

Marie- Very true, but the point I'm trying to make (and failing on my part) is that what's important about books, the observations, the thought, the opinion, the sight,
doesn't need to be in books. It can be in a movie, in a comic, it doesn't have to be a bunch of papers glued together with a pretty cover on top.

So what are the important things in books? Why do they matter, and why does society want it changed?

bayleyk2012 said...

Austin- good point. Books were never bad. The idea of them began to be bad.

Books began to represent thinking. Even though there are books that don't make you think at all.

alexandriab2012 said...

Bayley-
Fire or friendship; we know which one is safer,but which one is worth the better value.

katieh2012 said...

Nick- how does that point apply to the books in 451? and in our own socitey?

johnc2012 said...

Leslie-

I think it is for the same reason that Mildred took all those pills a while back. Mildred's friend realized unconciously that there was a sadness that had pertinence to her own sadness, but she has been so brainwashed her conciousness can only feelthe greif of her inner self

carolynf2012 said...

Kyle-
Why do you think the government doesn't know what is best? For all we know taking away the books is the best option. But we don't know. How are you to know what is best for you?

stephaniel2012 said...

Kyle-
You have a valid point. It is the government that dictates the best for people. But senators carry our voices to the government, which is still part of the goverment... wait a second... I'm talking myself out of this.

nickb2012 said...

Leslie-
guy's wife's friend doesn't only cry, she overeacts, she hasn't had sadness or madness in her life so when she ends up encountering it, it is too overwhelming

Laurao said...

Tristan-

I somewhat agree with you. People will control the government in our society. But in this society, we don't know if people are really smart enough to control the government.

bayleyk2012 said...

Tristan- so the people wanted to dumb themselves down.

KyleL2012 said...

Alex-I suspect that writing is either not allowed or no one writes. Who would write something that no one could read. who would write something no one could see. ho would write something no one could learn frm. I'm pretty sure there is no point to writing if there is no reading (circle of books!)

ericak2012 said...

Brian-
You said no one is writing because no one will see what you write. Earlier, Max had said people write for money. What about those people that writing is a hobby for? Those people that don't care if others see their written work, but write purely because they love writing?

chelseac2012 said...

Stephanie –
If no one wrote books that become banned, if no one wrote about the terrible things in the world… no one would know. If no one knows about the true bad in the world, no one knows how good life is or how quickly things can change. People just wouldn’t know if others didn’t write about the bad… like Nick said, no bad there’s no good.

PeterH2012 said...

Tristan- Then why are people afraid of the firefighters? I had a science teacher in Seventh grade, and his one rule was this. "you can do anything you want as long as it doesn't bother anyone". So why do people get so upset if others are reading?

robertc2012 said...

Mildred's friend cries about the poem because it touches something inside her. She recognizes its beauty and it has been a long time since she has heard something beautiful, not just DENHAM's DENTRIFICE nonstop.

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- If people didn't want freedom then it would be wonderful for the government to decide what the people get to do. However, people fight for freedom and people want freedom and turning people into non-thinking soulless beings is not something the government should be allowed to do!

Maxe2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllisonM2012 said...

Erica~ People also write because they want a change. They are unhappy with thier situation, like in the movie "Iron Jawed Angels". They wanted a change and many times the only way to reach people.

robertc2012 said...

INNER CIRCLE: READ MY ABOVE COMMENT!!

Brianc2012 said...

Kyle- I agree with you say that no one writes because no one will read what you write.

carolynf2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TristanL said...

Leslie ~
I think the woman cries because there is a type of memory, possibly from generations ago, that allowed for the woman to see the beauty in the poetry, and she was sad because she didn't know where this was coming from, but she knew that she wanted to hear more, but she also knew that she most likely couldn't.
This is a great point, because it connects to a book I read last year, The Call of the Wild, by Jack London. The main character, Buck, who is actually a dog, is taken to Alaska to be a sled dog. Under the pressure of the cold, when in danger, or when just hunting for food, this primitive instinct came out of him, from generations of his family, all passed down to him. Certain conditions can cause people to change, in many ways.

alexandriab2012 said...

Marie-
do you think that she will rebel against what she has been taught. and try read just for Guy or do you think that she just doesn't love Guy enough to do that.

carolynf2012 said...

Max,
That is why we have a democracy and the three branches of government. In F451 we haven't heard anything about a president in their society or a systematic 3 branches of government. In our world today how do you think the 3 branches is working? How is it not working?

nickb2012 said...

Katie,
this point applies because it can change a whole society. Our society is completely different from the society in 451, because we have the good, the bad and all the rest.

BernardoT2012 said...

TO INNER CIRCLE, (but welcome to all)-
What makes life good?

ericak2012 said...

Allison-
Very true! Exactly! I'm saying that people don't only write for money...

stephaniel2012 said...

Leslie-
I agree with John, she's reached that point where she knows that she's missing something and she knows what she's missing, but she knows it's also so wrong. it's a shock to her. She couldn't believe that she was hearing what she didn't know. Peter is right too, that now she's hearing what she can't grasp. It's hard for her, and it's wrong. She doesn't know how to cope.

sammiet2012 said...

Peter- They got rid of the books because it may have made them forget their problems, but once you forget something you learn or pick up new ideas. Those new ideas are foreign or conflicting to maybe the thoughts that society has burned into you, so now people may be too attached to those new ideas and they can't let them go.

TristanL said...

Bayley ~
About the books, I do not think that the people necessarily wanted to "dumb themselves down", but they didn't care what would happen as long as they were "happy", and the people thought that without books, they would be happy, because books "cause conflict".

bayleyk2012 said...

Alex- Friendship will always be worth more to me. But it is entirely a opinion. One is destructive as well as producing life. Whole friendship is usually thought of as something beautiful.

austin d 2012 said...

Tristan- People only have so much power. Its like a balance in a house. Some people probably thought taking books and learning away was good. Others thought it was bad. The last of those people are the ones defending the books. It takes the governments power to change things. More people in the gov. thought it was right to take books away in the government. That doesn't mean the majority of the people.

Laurao said...

To go back to the Denhams dentifrice idea. I just realized that when anyone tries to read a book, they are found and stopped. When Montag tries to read the Bible, he is stopped.

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo-
There is no one way to answer that, we have established that everyone's happiness is different, and so everyone's life is good in a different way. There isn't a single way to make life good either...

KyleL2012 said...

Carolyn, stephanie, and max-I agree with max in that the people we elect do not have to do what we say, he does what he wants to do. in campaigns it isn't let the people decide, it's hat he/she wants to do, and we either agree with their ideas, or agree with the opponents ideas. we never get to make our own ideas into a canidate, it's always the canidate's ideas alone. and secondly they don't have to do what their campaign said, even though it probably ruins reelection chances they can do what they want once they get into office.

alexandriab2012 said...

Kyle-
Does that mean that once you write the word on the page you cna reread it for errors?

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- If I answer that question we are going to go way off topic. I do agree that the government in F451 may not have three branches the government is too powerful and the people who realize that are hated and the people who don't realize it have been led by the government to believe what the government wants. It's cruel.

PeterH2012 said...

Sammie- Great, so They try to drown out their problems with shallow ideas!

carolynf2012 said...

Max-
What is freedom to you then? Not having a government? I believe in "freedom within limitations." What do the people in F451 believe in?

nickb2012 said...

erica, there would be no way to know what a good book is, because even if it makes one person happy, it will make someone else unhappy. If they are all burned then everyone can be happy. But what if, in the society in 451, burning the books makes someone else unhappy?

BernardoT2012 said...

Erica- Okay, but we are all human and there is one commonality so I ask you (this is one of my personal theories based on yin yang)

What makes life worthwhile for you?

alexandriab2012 said...

Max-
So, the word/song Denhams- effects Guy but what is the point?

bayleyk2012 said...

Tristan- Faber said that he had to quit his job because people stopped signing up. So you think the people just lost that love to learn.

katieh2012 said...

Nick- so without the good, the bad, and the ugly, the society is one dimensional. by bringing back the ideas and thoughts in society, The WHOLE world is changing right before their eyes. Right?

TristanL said...

Bernardo ~
Your question is nearly impossible to answer. There are many things, both tangible and not, that make life worth living. Family, love, nature, knowledge, friends, fun, hard work even... The list could go on forever. If you went to a hundred people and asked them the same question, than nearly everyone might say something different.

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo-
Like I said, there is no way for me to answer that question. There are so many things in my life that make it worthwhile. I'm going pose the same question on you...

BernardoT2012 said...

Tristan- see my comment to Erica above

johnc2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johnc2012 said...

Ok everyone

Like Ms. Smith was saying, do you think there is not emotion totally? Or just adreniline and other things like that?

TristanL said...

Bayley ~
I think that is because after the people started rebelling against books or conflict, that the government may have butted in and started to "help" the insurgence. They may have used their power to influence people to not want to learn, and want only to have fun.

KyleL2012 said...

Bernardo-what makes life good? one of the toughest questions to answer. I can't honestly say what makes it good, but you have to enjoy it. that's all i can pretty much say. there's no definite answer.

alexandriab2012 said...

Bayley-
I think your right, people just lost the love of reading -tey found it a was of time. So, how can you gain the love back?

sammiet2012 said...

How do you think that the green bullet (the seashell that listens) represents fear? How did the old man get to be so afraid?

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- the people in F451 didn't get to choose what they thought freedom was or what they wanted. They were led like a dog on a leash into believing the government. Limitations are needed but what if too many limitations are made and what if the people can't do anything until it's too late?

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo, Kyle, and Tristan-
Kyle made an above comment saying that there is no way to know what exactly makes life good, but you have to enjoy it. Enjoying it can just make it good...

Laurao said...

Bayley,

I am jumping in on this conversation. This must have been a very slow process. Not all of the books were burned in one night. Sure there were protesters in the begining, but those people were taken out of the society. All that is left is a stupid society. What do you think?

carolynf2012 said...

John-
What are you saying with adrenaline and emotion? Like Ashley mentioned in the inner circle, do you think that Mildred becomes so bottled up that one little thing makes her snap? Or that this truly was an inspiring event?

nickb2012 said...

katie,
Yes, but we don't know if the world is changing, or if this society is in a small part of the world. we don't know this because the characters in he book aren't aware of it.

all- what do you think, does this society exist throughout the world? or in just a small part of the world?

austin d 2012 said...

Carolyn- Your question to Max can be taken back into 451 when they hear Ben Franklin was the first firefighter. Democrecy changed, and not for the good. Also, if the books continue to burned there will be nothing to change the world back to the way it was.

TristanL said...

Bernardo ~
Well, for me personally, I'd have to say that I live for emotions, both good and bad. Smith just made me recall a few nights ago when I was on YouTube and I listened to a song that made me stop what I was doing and think. It was almost a terrible emotion building up in me, but I also thought that it may have been a good feeling, now that I look back on it. (The song is "An Angel" by Declan Galbraith if any of you want to listen to it, it's really good!)

chelseac2012 said...

Sammie –
Was he afraid of being killed? Or was he afraid no one would stand up with him? I think the old man was afraid of both… and that the “sea shell that listens” represents him opening up to the world, that the old man finally will be able to see life more than he had because of his fear.

Brianc2012 said...

Max- I agree with you when u say that the in 451 the people are led around like dogs on a leash. These people don't know what to do to get away from the limitations that the governement put on them.

Laurao said...

What does everyone think about Montag having the last copy of the Bible? The Bible is the most published book in the whole world, and there is only one left!

KyleL2012 said...

Alex- You can make a story for yourself, not even need to write it, so why write it, you can just imagine it. The point of why authors write is to spread their ideas, stories, and knowledge. just keeping the story to yourself serves no point.

Maxe2012 said...

Erica- my drama teacher says that life is like a baseball game, most of it is boring but those exciting parts are what makes a baseball game worth watching and life worth living. If there wasn't a reason to live, would any of us be here? I don't think so.

Maxe2012 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BernardoT2012 said...

Erica, possibly Tristan-
Very well, the one thing that makes my life worthwhile, the thing that makes everything I do enjoyable to me,

is finding understanding through thought.

Yes, everyone has different things that make their life worth while, but the reason those things are special are because they make me think, and they make me feel.

The same reason people watch depressing movies, and keep gardens that may never grow, and go on walks in a cold city. They give you a perspective, something alien to see, and understand if you look at it long enough.

TristanL said...

Erica and Kyle ~
If we try to enjoy life, won't be turn out just like this society in 451? Everyone in the book wants to have fun with life, yet they have a terrible, subconscious sadness inside of them. Do we really want to be like that?

ericak2012 said...

Max and Carolyn-
Both of you have made good points, and it's always entertaining to see what kind of government argument you two get into, but both of you have correct points, but it is true that too many limitations can be made, it is also true that there can be not enough. You need civilization to have the country function properly, but with too many you limit people's rights and freedom.

chelseac2012 said...

Nick –
I think the society is only in certain parts of the world, but they’re filled with lies so they think the whole world is the same.

carolynf2012 said...

Max-
Like we have often previously stated, you have to have a balance. Too much government creates a society like a "dog on a leash." But too little government creates this society that has no control and it is utter chaos. How does this relate to other things in F451? Do you think that the governments intentions in F541 to "make people happy" by taking away the books started out well?

connorm said...

Laura- i think that you are correct on the part that the people are on the path to a stupid society but its not there and the process is now falling apart. Faber is smart and now that he has Montag he will be a challenger as well so the system could be well broken now.

austin d 2012 said...

If Montag trys to let more people see the effects books have on people, do you think there can even be that much of a challenge to the system that will really change it?

johnc2012 said...

Carolyn
I am saying that they don’t have true emotion, just substitutes of Adreneline and other false “emotions”. And, what was it that bottled mildred up, and what was the thing that made her snap?

nickb2012 said...

tristan-
we don't have to be happy for us to enjoy life. Like i said before, there is no way to enjoy life, unless we kno how not enjoying life feels like.

Maxe2012 said...

Tristan- the diference between us and the people in F451 is we are closer to the meaning of happiness, most of the people in F451 don't know what they want and they don't realize they are sad because they have been brain washed.

KyleL2012 said...

laura- I think montag having the last copy of the bible is a big symbol towards montag, like he's the "chosen one" or something.

chelseac2012 said...

From the inner circle – Macbeth vs. Montag… any thoughts?

ericak2012 said...

Max and Tristan-

Max-I'm not saying that there isn't a reason for living at all, there are many. Yes, it is like a baseball game, the exciting parts are the most worthwhile and that's a lot of the reason to enjoy life that we need. But the ways those are exciting are different.

Tristan-YOu asked if we would turn out like the 451 society, but no, if we all enjoy life we wouldn't, are they enjoying life in that society? They think they are but are they really...

carolynf2012 said...

Austin-
But just because it was stated that Benjamin Franklin was the first fireman doesn't make it true. Do you think they were changing history, or just changing the words?

alexandriab2012 said...

tristan-
What do you live for?
Well, it's the same thing as in Twilight- if you can live forever what do you live for? And for Edward it was Bella because nothing else mattered, everything in this world he could come back to and could eperience again. But love it doesn't always happen again- so Bella was his once chance and he wasn't going to waste it. He spent all of his time and energy protecting bella.

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- I think the government in F451 wanted power and they got it.

TristanL said...

Max and Nick ~
Both of you have made very good points, but if we start to enjoy life, and only try to enjoy life, don't you think we might forget? That we may try to enjoy life to such a point that we forget everything, just like this society in F451?

johnc2012 said...

Nick B

I disagree. Although knowing how it is not to be happy definitely improves joy, think of a baby. They can be happy, but do they really know sadness? Do they know Fear? Do they know Hate?

bayleyk2012 said...

Tristan- what would cause that. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around not wanting to learn.

jays2012 said...

What does Faber mean? Does this name connect to Montag's name?

BernardoT2012 said...

to all reading my little event here-

Tristan brought up the point I needed. He lives for emotions, which for him can come in the form of songs.
So Tristan, when you get these weird emotions, what do you do?
I would bet that you, even without knowing, explore that emotion. You start thinking, why do I feel that? What did they say that did this, and why does it matter?

You think, you even said so, and you want to understand, and that's what makes it good.

robertc2012 said...

Laura- about the Bible: in the Bible it says that God's Word will not disappear from the earth before the end of the world. I do find it interesting that it gets blown up in the end (supposedly), but maybe everyone remembers it and then writes it down again. But F 451 is fiction, so I don't know.

leslieh2012 said...

As a horror junkie, i read a really long article on the psycology of fear. Really great horror films don't need gore- they just need to appeal to our innermost fears. I like "disturbing" better than a blood bath any day. Shure, some people hate blood. But truly great films need to appeal to our instincts. Fear is a reaction.

Brianc2012 said...

Chelsea- i think that Montag and Macbeth are the same because someone in their life made them think differently. For Macbeth it was Lady Macbeth and for Montag it was Clarisse.

nickb2012 said...

chelsea,
i agree, but then why is there no communication with the outside world. If the outside world is somewhat like our society, then wouldn't they have to be able to see this society. And see how worng it is?

austin d 2012 said...

John- Is it that they don't have the emotions or that the emotions have never been taught to them?

carolynf2012 said...

John-
I think that she had been bottling up emotion that she never knew she even had. The poetry made her snap just like Smith was saying, I think this really touched her. Do you think that the adrenaline and "false" emotions are the same thing?

Maxe2012 said...

Tristan- that is why we have boring parts of life. People realize that life isn't all fun and games. Also, I think that people know that if they don't give they won't get bcak and that they will feel bad about themselves.

katieh2012 said...

Nick- thats very true. we have no idea or reference about any other people in their world. So if htere are other poeple, are they the same? or different? if they're different, the two worlds may have "combined" and the outer world influenced their society. Could clarisse be that conneciton?

sammiet2012 said...

Peter- Exactly! It is kind of like you are drowning and you need air but society gives you a gas that you can breath, but you don't care what that gas is all you care about is that you can breathe again. You are satisfied for the moment. My question for you though is what do they do once you get fed up with the taste of that new air that you have forgot what the other air tastes like but you gain curiosity about it? What does society do with you then?

KyleL2012 said...

tristan-That is a good point, but i think they have a problem of trying new things. i think they are sad from missing out on new stuff. so they can't live life to the fullest, mildred stays in her house and only watches tv, never goes out and try new things. i think they are sad from the confinement in their society.

leslieh2012 said...

robert- remember how faber read the book of job to montag as he fell asleep? The bible was safe with faber. That book did not get burned.

johnc2012 said...

Jay

Faber means father in German and a pencil company. I think this whas Bradbury's way of adding symbolismm to everything, including his charecters

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura- I know it's amazing. But also the bible is a huge religious point. It is one of those books that makes people think. In the book there is not mention of religion. I think that the government also got rid of that because religious people tend to think and challange the system more.

leslieh2012 said...

How does his house burn down? They said that all houses were completely fireproofed.

alexandriab2012 said...

Kyle-
Because what if your memory doesn't last forever. hate to break it to you but no one's memory last lasts forever. So, maybe writing will help them remember. So what if no one ever reads it, it ca nbe for you and you alone. For me I wirte because I know that some day I might not remember an if I write then maybe I have a chance to remember and to not forget everything.

austin d 2012 said...

Carolyn-
They must of changed it to something that the people over time could slowly come to believe.

carolynf2012 said...

John-
But how does the pencil company symbolize something? Does it symbolize writing?

bayleyk2012 said...

Alex- to get back a love of learning. You have to see that good that comes with it. You love a class that makes you think and that is fun. When you get new information. Right?

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo-
Yes, this is true. We are going back to what Nick had said earlier, you need a little bad to know what the good is.

TristanL said...

Alex ~
I think I've said what I live for, but I shall repeat it again:
I life to experience emotions, whether they are good or bad. I think that life would mean nothing if there wasn't emotion. Imagine you've just squashed a mosquito. What have you just done? Have you just killed a rather annoying bug? Or have you extinguished a billion emotions that existed in that small entity? Do mosquitoes have emotions, just like us? Does every animal have emotions, just like us?

chelseac2012 said...

Nick –
But if they are kept in their own little society… and never let out, if they’re in some sort of bubble of sorts, kept in by the government… maybe they have designated regions, not too big but not so small that people could get out and see the world. Maybe there’s two different “worlds” the real and theirs. If the government stops them, they aren’t going to rebel. They’re going to believe what they are told.

johnc2012 said...

Carolyn

Oh, I understand now. I was lost for a second. I think it was like taking a liter of coke, shaking it up, and tearing off the cap, letting its contents escape out

nickb2012 said...

john-
good point, however they LEARN throughout life. They don't have a reason to not be happy. but they also have no reason to be happy. They don't know how to be sad. They seem happy, because they don't know how to express sadness.

carolynf2012 said...

Austin-
But how would this work? If I changed all the books in the world to say that Michael Jordan was not a basketball player but in fact he was a president, no one would believe me and society wouldn't allow me to go with that idea.

jays2012 said...

john- connecting that, montag is a paper co. isn' it? so if Faber is a Pencil Co, it's like Faber writing the new information onto Montag?

carolynf2012 said...

John-
But how does the pencil company symbolize something? Does it symbolize writing?

leslieh2012 said...

I wanted to compare life to waffles... that can be deep

robertc2012 said...

Bernado- What makes life good?, Someone said purpose. I agree with Peter. Awesome.

bayleyk2012 said...

Laura- The whole society isn't stupid. There are other people like Faber who think. But there are othere people. So if they all grouped together they might be able to challange the system.

Maxe2012 said...

Carolyn- If all the books saying he was a baskeball player were destroyed, eventually in the future, the thoughts in the book where he was president would be thought of as a fact. However, it is extreamly unlikely that this will happen.

KyleL2012 said...

Bernardo-Emotions aren't the base of life, it makes people lively, but not life. life i would say is living, so the ones that live the most out of life would enjoy life the most imo.

Laurao said...

Connor-

Thats a good point. Faber and Montag can team up to try to challenge the system.

johnc2012 said...

Carolyn

The pencil shows that Faber not only is part of a literary background (Like how we use pencils to write) and that faber is going to "write" somethinig onto montag that will change him, just like Clarisse left her impact on him

bayleyk2012 said...

leslieh- I'm sure you could. My brother had a teacher who compared thnking to waffles once...

ericak2012 said...

Bernardo, Leslie, and Peter-
Bernardo went into the inner circle and the first thing that was said was by Peter, and he said 'purpose'. Leslie went into an analogy about waffles, and Ms. Smith said that this wasn't deep. It may not have been to Smitty, but it could have been to Leslie. She made and analogy, this book is full of analogies, why can't Leslie's be considered deep?

TristanL said...

Kyle ~
You are all making good points, but it is very possible for us to become the society in F451. You always have to ask: What if?, but usually What if? doesn't happen. I don't think we have to worry that our society will come to that if F451, but it is always a possibility.

johnc2012 said...

Nick,

But then how are babies happy in the first place?

austin d 2012 said...

Carolyn-
However, If the govt. slowly changed the facts around, over several generations, if facts were changed more and more, Benjamin Franklin could become the first firefighter and Michael Jordon could become the first president.

leslieh2012 said...

we've been using the word society. What does that mean?

nickb2012 said...

Chelsea,
this goes back to challenging the system. Books can give us the ideas to challenge the system and 451's society's gov't gets rid of that aspect.

chelseac2012 said...

Life…
“All life is an experiment.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson… If you don’t try something different, experiment with new things, where will life take you?

Laurao said...

Bayley-

Knowledge vs Ignorance, I would disagree. The knowledge that these 'smart' people have is over shadowed by the ignorance of not actually challenging the system.

alexandriab2012 said...

Tristan-
Nice quote! I like it!
I think that it's what you do that can make it all worth it. For Edward that's Bell, for me it's something different than what it is for you.
So, can you achieve your goals to make life "amazing?"

alexandriab2012 said...

Tristan-
Nice quote! I like it!
I think that it's what you do that can make it all worth it. For Edward that's Bell, for me it's something different than what it is for you.
So, can you achieve your goals to make life "amazing?"

KyleL2012 said...

Alex-Ok so if writing makes you remember, then why do authors publish thousands of copies. the main point of riting is it's the cheapest way to get your ideas out. i think the point of writing (answering erica's question) is to spread ideas.

johnc2012 said...

Jay-

YES! Look up the comment I left for Carolyn

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