Nick- I think they stopped there because Mildred turned Montag in and they are going to burn his house. Also on a deeper level I think Beatty wanted to make a statement to Montag that books are bad.
To answer the inner circle's question, fire gives man power, and man likes power. But constantly in history because fire is uncontrollable, fire has bit man in the butt.
Nick- I think that Beatty knew that Montag had more than just that one book and was really interested them because of the way he acted. So, Beatty sent the hound his way. I think the hound not only kills animals, but also can "sniff out" books. One of Mildred's friends may have also turned them in.
If it really was Mildred who turned Montag in, what changed that made her decide to do that as apposed to keeping it a secret? She wants to keep her walls, etc.
Bridget - But remember she was leaving with things already packed by the time that Beatty and Montag got there. Maybe I'm crazy but I remember reading somewhere that Montag asked Beatty if it was Mildred who called and he said yes it was. I will try to find it.
kaylin: nothing can be defined because there is always some one else in the world that will see something in a different perspective and define that hing differently than another person.
Everyone- I agree and disagree with what you have said. I think that Beatty knew more than he told Guy. As we read more, you will see a connection between Beatty and some other character. But Why would mildred turn in montag?
IC- Fire was not completely good in Lord of the Flies. Remember in the end of the book Jack burned the island to smoke out Ralph. This connects to 451 because both in both of these instances fire was used to attempt to destroy opposition.
Kailyn- I think that its not just BOOKS that they don't like. Its the knowledge that they contain. They need to keep the people from obtaining knowlegde to keep the socitey working the way it is.
I agree with jacob because it let the people now that they will come for you if you have books and it gives the people fear not to even think or look about books.
Justin- I think it was the fact that the poem talked about how good the world could be and I think it made her depressed that the world was not like that. What do you think?
I've read many people who has said that fire gave them power. I agree with this, but don't you think that Guy had even more power without fire? He could do many stuff without the usage of fire, but with the knowledge of the books and the meaning of them.
Inner Circle- I am not totally sure what you are talking about. But I'm hearing fire and water. I think both represent safety and danger in their own ways. They are equal and opposite each other at the same time.
bridget: i think Mrs. Phelps started to cry when Montag read the poem because she relate dthe poem to something that had impacted her emotionally and she started to cry because of it. The poem made her think.
The inner circle brought up a good point. Fire and water cancel each other out. Faber says this because fabers cool and quiet personality cancels montag's firey passion.
Kailyn- Yes, some things are definiable, there are universal things that are agreed upon by all people, and plants and animals. Even though they are sometimes given different names, they are the same. I'm not saying everything is, I'm saying that things are definiable, and it is human nature to want definition.
Justin-I think she began to cry because it was just so different. It shocked her system and she had no idea what to do with the information that was forced into her
Nick - I guess a reason she would turn him in might be because she doesn't like the risk of having them in her home anymore. Or because she is fed up with Montag which supports the idea that they aren't really in love.
Bridget- I think that the poem provided an outlet of her emotion. Emotion in this sociaty is lost, it has to be building up inside all of them. It probably just takes something to make us notice it.
Brady- That is kind of what I thought also. But, she said that she had no idea why she was crying. Do you think it brought up thoughts and emotions subconciously, but not enough that she really understands it at all.
I don't think he is a tragic hero for a few reasons. A tragic hero has to die, which he doesn't, and they have to have a tragic flaw, which he doesn't have.
Inner Circle: The fire and water cancel each other out but they also have many similarities, like the components. They both need oxygen to be present. So they both run on the same thing, but they are complete opposites.
Montag did have have a tragic flaw at first which was the doubt that he is do the wrong thing by reading books but he realized that he was ding the rihgt thing.
Kelsey- Definately. It is kind of like all emotion is lost in the society, but builds up inside. Maybe people are unaware of even their own emotions, but they still escape. Maybe that is why Mildred overdosed on sleeping pills without even knowing it. Subconciously she had too many emotions trying to get out.
Kailyn-I dont think fire is living. A human, or an animal is living, a plant is too. But fire isnt "breathing" it needs oxygen, but it doesnt breath in and out and doesnt complete many of the funcions needed to be alive
Justin- You mean that it made her realize that she is not beautiful? That's a little harsh. I would say more that it made her realize that the world they all thought was perfect truely isn't.
Water and fire are like in lord of the flies. Jack and Ralph are opposites, but are both in need of the basic necessities, like how fire and water both need the element oxygen to survive.
Nick: Mildred turned montag in because she didn't him breaking out of the normal way of doing things. She also didn't like him inturupting her T.v. time, and he scared her friend. She just got annoyed with him so she turned him in.
Carol - I think that all the opposites represent all the different kind of people that are out there. Like fire and water, sometimes their ideas and opinions cancel eachother's out.
Katie- I agree. She might want to get rid of him. But didn't we also establish that she was too brainless to do anything about anything? I think that she might not have been the only one involved in this operation.
nick- Can we really say that he doesn't have a tragic flaw? I think that perhaps his tragic flaw is that he is not scared or reserved. Would any of this have happened if he had been reserved enough to keep his temper with Mildred's friends. If he had not shown Mildred the books out of excitement? If he was careful like Faber.
Justin- it's kind of like hate and love. They are so similar. They are both very passionate emotions. Likewise fire and water are both very powerful resources. They can both also become uncontrollible.
Outercircle: In the book it mentioned that one of the women put her kids through school 9 days out of 10. Then the day that they were home she just turned on the tv. She never really interacts with them or parents them. If this is the relationship with children, why do people in 451 have them other than to continue the population?
Kinsey: I wasn't talking about physical beauty. I was just saying that she thought that her life was perfect, but the poem pproved otherwise. It was almost the complete opposite.
Nick - Yes that's a good point. She might have been too sucked into her tv programs to pay any attention to what he was doing. But if there was anyone else involved, who do you think?
Ben: humans need oxygen, but they breath in and out, constantly, its a living process. Humans also reproduce cells, and complete all of the other requirements to be "living" fire doesnt.
I think Beatty used to read and then he found out something from reading that deeply effected him and caused him to buy into the idea that a simple life of pleasure is better... This is why he hates Montag because Montag is trying to bring back this society... I find him to be a tragic character...
Bridget: I think if Montag was scared there would be no problem that he would want to fix. If he was scared he wouldn't try to change anything and he would serve no purpose to the story. He would be too scared to even take books and then wouldn't help the cause.
Nick- Your right about how Mildred is too brainless to do all this. Maybe Beatty knew something was going on and coxed it out of Milred, or pushed her to the breaking point to get the information out. Beatty seems to be really smart and understand books, but still hate them. So he clearly really believes in the system.
Kinsey- Good question. I'm not sure if all parents in 451 act this way. Also, if many of the citizens in 451 have no obvious reason to live, why would they have kids?
Brigit- If he didn't do all the stuff that you said because of the tragic flaw, then none of this would have happened. And if none of this happened, he wouldn't be a tragic hero.
Brian- But I'm not saying he has to be so scared as to sit alone in his house. I do think however, that there is something to be said for someone who is not so bold as to lose everything for a silly reason. He could've listened and learned secretly and quietly without raising suspition if he was just a little bit reserved.
Kaeli and Ben - A while back in biology we did something in class with a bunch of different item and we had to determine if they were living or not. Fire was on of the options and the class decided that it wasn't alive. But I think that in some ways it could be considered alive but mostly just as an analogy or in like personification or something.
croline: i agree. Anybody can think of some reason to make anything a cospiracy but mmost of the time there isn't a reason of why someone would do something ike faking Ronald Reagon's death. He had no reason to fake his death. It just shows how untrusting people are if they think he faked his death.
Katie- exactly, with opposites, there will always be similarities. Like with hot and cold, they are opposites, but they are both temperatures. That is why something like a poster and the color purple are not opposites, they are just different. There has to be something that makes them similar, to put them in the same category. I think this book shows a society that is "opposite" ours that is also very similar still.
Buatty gets the worst out of books with quotes that explain how books are bad and corrupt which makes Montag think even more about how reading books may be wrong.
Ben-One of the women said that the reason she had children was to continue the population. Also I think these people have the same reason to live we do they want to experience pleasure and enjoy life...
Kinsey: It could be. For example, firemen burning instead of putting out fires is opposite from our reality. Books being evil, instead of good, are also opposites.
Nick- I am a bit confused about our tragic flaw conversation. I thought you said that he was NOT a tragic hero because he did NOT have a tragic flaw, and I was simply saying that I think he does have a tragic flaw. Maybe I misunderstood you to start with. Do you think he does, or does not have a tragic flaw?
Paul- not every character has to have a tragic flaw. But, if you think about it, doesn't everybody have a tragic flaw. It could Corruption, Anger, Curiosity, Power, or Money, just to name a few.
Someone brought up that opposites are a big theme in this book, which they are. I think that balance is also a big theme. Maybe the book is trying to show the importance of keeping a balance between opposites.
Lsadler: Beatty did not commit suicide and clarrise is dead. There isn't a conspiracy theory in this book. Why does everybody think their is a conspiracy going on in the book?
Lauren- No, I don't think that he commited suicide, at least not on purpose. I think that he had the feeling that he wanted to, but he didn't really do it on purpose.
Kaeli- Yes, I did that activity to, and its a real gray area. Because, plants are alive but they can't just get up and walk away. Yet, fire is the same way.
Justin- I think it is that he is not careful enough. He is too excited and curious. His intentions are good, and he could have succeeded except that he got excited and yelled at the women and acted weird to Beatty and told Mildred about the books. If he had not jumped to act so quickly at those moments, would he have been discovered?
Justin- Why do you think the government or whoever has banned the books? Do you think that they tell people that books are sad and depressing so that they become "bad" in peoples minds?
AnnaSophia- I think that you definitely do need a character to have a flaw to make a story. It may not need to be tragic, but they do need a flaw, in every story, that's what helps make the plotline. Who wants to read a book about a perfect little girl that does everything right? That's why people like celebrites that are "rebels" they are interesting.
Annasophia-Yes. This is why sad people who are to lazy to think are likely to be drawn to Palin shes good lucking....
I think being good looking is different then being energetic, exciting and eloquent ect. which is why I think Miss Smith's argument about Nixon is invalid because while you cant tell anything about anyone based on their looks because they are goodlooking you can based on their speaking ability. Also think about the look of Obama's skin and how this may effect him....
Ben-yes, but plants also reproduce and have offspring, they have a part in genetics, but fire doesnt do that. Fire produces because it eats things and gets bigger, you cant look at the genetics of fire and see where it came from
Nick- Okay, now I get it. That is what I thought. I also don't think he is a tragic hero. But not for the same reason. I think he is not because he is not a hero. Yes, he has good thoughts. But is he really a hero at all? Has he tried to help the people, or simply teach himself? He yells at the women, but never tries to help them understand.
Nick: I think that he does, but it doesn't make him a tragic hero, because it doesn't cause a downfall. He is careless, like Bridget said, and maybe too curious.
bridget- i agree. In this book the government or sombody is taking away opposites. They only want things that go well together. there is no variaty. This place is very one sided.
To answer the inner circle's question- I think that Mrs. Phelps was crying because she was scared of Montag and maybe she was feeling connected with the poem somehow.
Kinsey: I think at first the way that they could ban books at first was but by telling them they are bad, but now I think books have been banned for so long that no one has any doubt that they are bad.
In Fahrenheit's society, the political election are based on the looks of the president not on what he is giing to provid efor their country.They cannot think for themselves for who the best candidate is.
Kelsey- That's true too. They have taken the opposites out of the story, they have taken out th interesting parts of life, so they think that they are happy, but then they are also suicidal and all.
Kinsey: I think so. People of higher authority tells them that it's bad, so they believe it. it's like the Denham's Dentrifice commercial. They don't need it, but because they said he does, he wants to buy it.
Kinsey: He wanted to see how far Montag would go. What else would he have to live for, he quotes books that he doesnt even understand, doesnt feel true love. If had the oppurtunity to escape it why woulnt he take that chance.
IC-The black turnout is not all about Obama being black... I think it also has to do what Bush and the Republican party in general has -or has not done- for many African Americans, particuarly those who live in poverty as many, though by no means all, do...
Ben- I agree. Although I don't think it's so much as that they hate kids, although that is the reason for some, I think its more that kids don't fit their lifestyle. Like a woman who travels and is gone from home 3 weeks out of a month is probably not going to have kids if her schedule stays like that.
Caroline: characters in books are human thus they will always have flaws. Even characters are not human their personalities are based off humans because the book id wriiten by humans so all characters are going to have a flaw. So i guess everybody is a tragic hero because everybody has flaws. Or at least that is what people say tragic hero is.
Carline- I think she was scared because Montag lashed out so suddenly. And perhaps like I said before, the poem he read somehow touched her in a way that she hadn't been touch that way in a long time.
Justin- I agree. I also think that its like this today. If a little kid see's a commercial for a toy, they instantly want it. Do you think we are more or less brainwashed than the people in 451? I think less, but we are still brainwashed.
Doesnt history tend to repeat its self? This has connections to the KKK, the nazi's LOF and macbeth. what does anyone else have any other connections to the text?
Katie: They realize they are bad, but wasn't Mildred very afraid of books even though she has never read them. I think they are so fixed on what the higher authority says that they cannot believe anything else. Also none of them have read them so I think they do not really know anything about them.
Trey-I think that is completely possible. Some people just have issues, and whether or not they realize it, they want their life to be over, and they begin to do things without even realizing that could kill them
Nick- I see what you mean why she would be scared of him because he lashed out, but what in the poem touched her? Why did it make her so emotional she started crying?
Katie and Ben- I think that it is horribly that people would vote for Oboma because of his race or Hilary Clinton because she is a woman. But they also vote for people because of things like, "they have good sounding speaches" I talk to people who like them not because of the content of their speeches, but the way they sound. The thing is, just because someone is a good speaker doesn't mean they have good ideals, and it goes the other way. Also, people have to remember that they don't write their own speaches.I think that a lot of voters today simply dont educate themselves enough about the candidates.
Kinsey: I don't think people in our time would be brainwashed, but I would say that if they see something they want, they automatically think that they need it.
Jacob Thats a really good point. What about the French Revolution. Way to rule by fear. Hey guys by the way if we don't like you we'll cut your head off and put it on a plate.
Trey- I agree with your reasoning on subconsiously commiting suicide. Ive heard stories of people not being able to kill themselves because their mind wont let them
Caroline-Montag has done alot thats scary. He is challenging the system, a system which she has lived in her whole life and she cannot comprehend or understand why, so she is fearful. This is the equivalant to someone deciding to start like a drug company in their house in our world because they think drugs should be legalized...
Trey- Is it really impossibly to subcontiosly try to commit suicide? Maybe she was sleepwalking and did it. The subcontious is a powerful thing I think, especially when you live in a world like that, your subcontious is probably much "larger" for a lack of better words. They have much more emotion and thought that they don't know about. And that can be a strong thing.
Justin- I agree, but to some extent we are brainwashed. Like we were talking about in history about how we stand to say the pledge of allegiance because everyone else does and its just part of the routine. Do you ever really think about what your saying when you do say it? I know I don't. I think its just another routine that we all have.
Trey: When people experience something new, like this emotion that the women felt, they mistake it for something evil. Not everyone mistakes this, however; some may think that it is good to experience new things.
Lsadler: he wasn't egging him on he just stuck to his point of view and he was just stating his ideas. Plus he was challengin Montag to see if he had the guts to do it. Some people are like that. I'm sure he didn't wish to die. He just did not fear death.
Briget-I think people who are subconciously trying to commit suicide are not actually subconciously doing it. I think they are simply trying to supress their feelings and emptiness. THey are pretending its not their ignoring it but they know they are misreable which is why they are trying to kill themselves.
Thats a good point Bridget. I suppose you are right. But what about if you subconsciously committed a murder or subconsciously created the KKK? That could be used by people
Bridget - Yeah you are right. It's kind of like Hitler. His speeches were so freakin powerful just because of the way he talked. Even though now that we look back he had horrible ideas. The people didn't pay as much attention to those ideas as how great of a speaker he was. You can watch them on youtube. He's crazy.
Kinsey: When I first learned it, I really thought about what it meant. Even though I don't anymore, it doesn't mean that I'm brainwashed. Routines don't always mean brainwashed.
Caroline- Beatty seems as if he has a higher knowledge over the rest of the people. I think that he figured it out that Montag had a book under his pillow and that just her friends calling it in was a cover up.
katie- Exactly. Maybe that is how this whole society began. People listened to corrupt leaders and people because of their corisma. And look where it got them?
IC- I think you are all reading to much into the book. The government does not teach people how to feel... It just limits anything that would make them feel...
Exactly Justin. Like the people who shot each other or drive super fast in the bettle cars. Or even the teens who tried to avoid Montag at the last minute. These people know that new is fun and cool.
Justin- I'm not saying that routines are being brainwashed. I'm just saying that routines are a step towards being brainwashed. If a routine gets so ingrained then if will become brainwashing. That's why its a really good thing to break routines every once in a while.
Bridget and Trey- I already posted this once. Your subconscious tries to protect you. That's why stories are out there that people coulnt pull the trigger on themselves because their mind wouldnt let them.
Bridget: I think so too. I think it was more subconscious instead. Isn't suicide mostly caused by emotion? However, Mildred didn't have that much emotion, so it was caused by another thing.
Jacob- You make a good point, but from the way that the friends reacted that one of them had definitely called him in and maybe given him a hint about it, but I don't think that Beatty is like an all-seeing powerful man
Change has a huge effect on society. I think fear of change and different ways of doing things is the root of all racism and homophobia and as people become more exposed they become slowly less fearful which is why problems like racism and homophobia are SLOWLY going away...
Katie- Because history repeats itself. There are so many connections to these futuristic books to the past. It is like the past, re-written.
Everyone- I was thinking. I think a lot of the things in this book are still very relevent ideas about the future. At one point Montag asks one of Mildred's friends how many abortions she has had. Which means, in that society abortion is common. Is that not the direction our country is headed?
Trey- I dunno about your history teacher last year but ours was all about seeing patterns in history. In this book I can see so many things that have ran along the same plot if you will, and can relate to this book. so our count is french revolution, macbeth, LOF, KKK, the nazis, anyone else?
Katie- We end up talking about Hitler and communism because they relate to the things that we read. The authors are trying to tell us something about our world and are trying to show us how close they are
Kinsey: I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think that brainwashing is the forceful changing of the mind. In a routine, you're mind changes, but it is mostly caused by what you think and what you place on yourself.
I hate to ask a dumb question but what is brainwashed? Is that just like people following blindly? Seriously though Inner Circle what is brainwashed? So many people say that. I think they use it to frequently.
Lsadler: There are much worse things then dying. Dying is just a stage in life. There is no reson to fear it when you know it will happen eventually, so why fear when there is know way to avoid it.
233 comments:
1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»Ok...To start us off, why do you think the firemen stopped off in front of montags house.
Nick- I think they stopped there because Mildred turned Montag in and they are going to burn his house. Also on a deeper level I think Beatty wanted to make a statement to Montag that books are bad.
To answer the inner circle's question, fire gives man power, and man likes power. But constantly in history because fire is uncontrollable, fire has bit man in the butt.
Nick - I thought Mildred turned him in?
why cant anything be defined?
nick: they stopped in front of his house to burn the books and montag's and arrest montag
Well, Nick, I believe that they stopped in front of Montag's house because they had a report, and they knew he had books
Nick: The firemen stopped in front of his house because he broke the law by owning books, therefore it was there job to burn his house.
Nick- I think that Beatty knew that Montag had more than just that one book and was really interested them because of the way he acted. So, Beatty sent the hound his way. I think the hound not only kills animals, but also can "sniff out" books. One of Mildred's friends may have also turned them in.
Kailyn - Because everyone has a different opinon of what something is so no definition can be correct for anyone.
Kailyn- What do you mean? What is undefinable in this story?
Kailyn- What do you mean? What is undefinable in this story?
Kinsey: Didn't Beatty say that it would be ok if Montag burned the books then he would be ok?
What is your opinion of books? Could they be bad? Is it circumstantial?
If it really was Mildred who turned Montag in, what changed that made her decide to do that as apposed to keeping it a secret? She wants to keep her walls, etc.
Isnt there anything though katie that is universal?
Katie and some other people- I do not think Mildred turned him in because it is her house and life too. She has too much to lose by turning him in.
Fire can provide a sense of security or a point of danger.
This book deals alot with power and how much power the people have. What is the statement Bradbury is trying to make about power?
Well, Caroline is anything definable?
The reason that they burn them, it symbolizes that, by tooth and nail, they will destroy books.
Inner Circle: Why do you think that Mrs. Phelps was so depressed after hearing the poem? What was in the poem that made her cry
Everyone- Why do you think that Mrs. Phelps started to cry when read the poem?
Kristen: Yes but didn't he have limited time? My understanding was that he did not complete burning them in that time.
Bridget - But remember she was leaving with things already packed by the time that Beatty and Montag got there. Maybe I'm crazy but I remember reading somewhere that Montag asked Beatty if it was Mildred who called and he said yes it was. I will try to find it.
kaylin: nothing can be defined because there is always some one else in the world that will see something in a different perspective and define that hing differently than another person.
Everyone- I agree and disagree with what you have said. I think that Beatty knew more than he told Guy. As we read more, you will see a connection between Beatty and some other character. But Why would mildred turn in montag?
IC-
Fire was not completely good in Lord of the Flies. Remember in the end of the book Jack burned the island to smoke out Ralph. This connects to 451 because both in both of these instances fire was used to attempt to destroy opposition.
Kailyn- I think that its not just BOOKS that they don't like. Its the knowledge that they contain. They need to keep the people from obtaining knowlegde to keep the socitey working the way it is.
Justin I think her self consciousness is affected, I think that it is possible to feel, even without understanding.
I agree with jacob because it let the people now that they will come for you if you have books and it gives the people fear not to even think or look about books.
Justin- I think it was the fact that the poem talked about how good the world could be and I think it made her depressed that the world was not like that. What do you think?
I've read many people who has said that fire gave them power. I agree with this, but don't you think that Guy had even more power without fire? He could do many stuff without the usage of fire, but with the knowledge of the books and the meaning of them.
Fire and water are both necessary for life but can also destroy it.
Caroline, I agree, it is the content that matters, but is anything definable?
Inner Circle- I am not totally sure what you are talking about. But I'm hearing fire and water. I think both represent safety and danger in their own ways. They are equal and opposite each other at the same time.
bridget: i think Mrs. Phelps started to cry when Montag read the poem because she relate dthe poem to something that had impacted her emotionally and she started to cry because of it. The poem made her think.
Caroline- It is not only that, they want to keep every body from fighting and satisfy the minority not only the majority.
The inner circle brought up a good point. Fire and water cancel each other out. Faber says this because fabers cool and quiet personality cancels montag's firey passion.
Kailyn- Yes, some things are definiable, there are universal things that are agreed upon by all people, and plants and animals. Even though they are sometimes given different names, they are the same. I'm not saying everything is, I'm saying that things are definiable, and it is human nature to want definition.
Justin-I think she began to cry because it was just so different. It shocked her system and she had no idea what to do with the information that was forced into her
Kinsey: I also agree. The beauty of the poem may have made her realize that she wasn't.
How can man need an opposite things to survive, fire water.
Nick - I guess a reason she would turn him in might be because she doesn't like the risk of having them in her home anymore. Or because she is fed up with Montag which supports the idea that they aren't really in love.
Bridget- I think that the poem provided an outlet of her emotion. Emotion in this sociaty is lost, it has to be building up inside all of them. It probably just takes something to make us notice it.
Brady- That is kind of what I thought also. But, she said that she had no idea why she was crying. Do you think it brought up thoughts and emotions subconciously, but not enough that she really understands it at all.
Is fire living?
To answer the inner circles question-
I think Montag is a tragic hero. And I agree with Sami that his tragic flaw was curiostiy. But is curiosity always a bad thing?
I forgot my password. But going along with the poem I believe she cried, because it showed her the beauty of life that she was missing.
I don't think he is a tragic hero for a few reasons. A tragic hero has to die, which he doesn't, and they have to have a tragic flaw, which he doesn't have.
Inner Circle: The fire and water cancel each other out but they also have many similarities, like the components. They both need oxygen to be present. So they both run on the same thing, but they are complete opposites.
Kailyn- Do we need fire to surveve?
Kinsey: I thought that Beady told Montag to take his time and read the books, but when he was done he sould burn them.
Montag did have have a tragic flaw at first which was the doubt that he is do the wrong thing by reading books but he realized that he was ding the rihgt thing.
Kelsey- Definately. It is kind of like all emotion is lost in the society, but builds up inside. Maybe people are unaware of even their own emotions, but they still escape. Maybe that is why Mildred overdosed on sleeping pills without even knowing it. Subconciously she had too many emotions trying to get out.
Kailyn-I dont think fire is living. A human, or an animal is living, a plant is too. But fire isnt "breathing" it needs oxygen, but it doesnt breath in and out and doesnt complete many of the funcions needed to be alive
There are a lot of examples of opposites in this book, how do they play a role in the significance?
Justin- You mean that it made her realize that she is not beautiful? That's a little harsh. I would say more that it made her realize that the world they all thought was perfect truely isn't.
Water and fire are like in lord of the flies. Jack and Ralph are opposites, but are both in need of the basic necessities, like how fire and water both need the element oxygen to survive.
Nick, does a tragic hero have to die, or just have a tragic downfall?
Kaylin- Obviously, fire doesn't hold all five traits of life, but in a way the fire can take on a life of it's own by changing heat or patterns.
Nick: Mildred turned montag in because she didn't him breaking out of the normal way of doing things. She also didn't like him inturupting her T.v. time, and he scared her friend. She just got annoyed with him so she turned him in.
Kristen: I thought he only had 48 hours.
Carol - I think that all the opposites represent all the different kind of people that are out there. Like fire and water, sometimes their ideas and opinions cancel eachother's out.
Kaeli- Don't humans need oxygen to?
Katie- I agree. She might want to get rid of him. But didn't we also establish that she was too brainless to do anything about anything? I think that she might not have been the only one involved in this operation.
nick- Can we really say that he doesn't have a tragic flaw? I think that perhaps his tragic flaw is that he is not scared or reserved. Would any of this have happened if he had been reserved enough to keep his temper with Mildred's friends. If he had not shown Mildred the books out of excitement? If he was careful like Faber.
Inner Circle-
Jacob are you talking about consperacy theories?
Justin- it's kind of like hate and love. They are so similar. They are both very passionate emotions. Likewise fire and water are both very powerful resources. They can both also become uncontrollible.
Outercircle: In the book it mentioned that one of the women put her kids through school 9 days out of 10. Then the day that they were home she just turned on the tv. She never really interacts with them or parents them. If this is the relationship with children, why do people in 451 have them other than to continue the population?
Kailyn- We've read this book before, and i don't rememmber montag having a tragic downfall. Do you?
Kinsey: I wasn't talking about physical beauty. I was just saying that she thought that her life was perfect, but the poem pproved otherwise. It was almost the complete opposite.
Nick - Yes that's a good point. She might have been too sucked into her tv programs to pay any attention to what he was doing. But if there was anyone else involved, who do you think?
Ben: humans need oxygen, but they breath in and out, constantly, its a living process. Humans also reproduce cells, and complete all of the other requirements to be "living" fire doesnt.
Montag has had two real starters in his life so far: Clarrise and Faber. do you think that since she is dead, what will happen to Faber?
exactly. I don't think its possible not to feel. Maybe only to not understand feeling.
Couldn't anything be taken as conspiracy? It just comes down to how much you trust the people who controll you, in our case, the government
I think Beatty used to read and then he found out something from reading that deeply effected him and caused him to buy into the idea that a simple life of pleasure is better...
This is why he hates Montag because Montag is trying to bring back this society...
I find him to be a tragic character...
Kelsey: Yes, they are like the same. In fact, there are many things that could represent that.
Nick, I would have to say that losing ones home, wife, way of life and becoming an outcast to society is a downfall, even if it is not permanent.
Bridget: I think if Montag was scared there would be no problem that he would want to fix. If he was scared he wouldn't try to change anything and he would serve no purpose to the story. He would be too scared to even take books and then wouldn't help the cause.
Nick- Your right about how Mildred is too brainless to do all this. Maybe Beatty knew something was going on and coxed it out of Milred, or pushed her to the breaking point to get the information out. Beatty seems to be really smart and understand books, but still hate them. So he clearly really believes in the system.
Kinsey- Good question. I'm not sure if all parents in 451 act this way. Also, if many of the citizens in 451 have no obvious reason to live, why would they have kids?
Justin: Exactly it was opposite. Is this why you think Mrs. Bowles is convinced poems make people suicidal?
Brigit- If he didn't do all the stuff that you said because of the tragic flaw, then none of this would have happened. And if none of this happened, he wouldn't be a tragic hero.
I am just wondering does every character need to have a TRAGIC flaw???
Faber will always stay in his house because he is fearful of the world outside. So i think Faber will always be in his house but dead to the world.
Justin- Yes. In most situations it seems that opposites are really the closest thing to eachother.
Ben- Another good question. If they are all so miserable why would they continue the race so that their children could be miserable?
Kaeli-
Fire does reproduce though, it grows and grows.
Brian- But I'm not saying he has to be so scared as to sit alone in his house. I do think however, that there is something to be said for someone who is not so bold as to lose everything for a silly reason. He could've listened and learned secretly and quietly without raising suspition if he was just a little bit reserved.
Do you guys think that Beatty committed "suicide".
Kailyn- good point. But to me he doesn't seem like a tragic hero, maybe a normal hero though.
Kaeli and Ben - A while back in biology we did something in class with a bunch of different item and we had to determine if they were living or not. Fire was on of the options and the class decided that it wasn't alive. But I think that in some ways it could be considered alive but mostly just as an analogy or in like personification or something.
croline: i agree. Anybody can think of some reason to make anything a cospiracy but mmost of the time there isn't a reason of why someone would do something ike faking Ronald Reagon's death. He had no reason to fake his death. It just shows how untrusting people are if they think he faked his death.
Katie- exactly, with opposites, there will always be similarities. Like with hot and cold, they are opposites, but they are both temperatures. That is why something like a poster and the color purple are not opposites, they are just different. There has to be something that makes them similar, to put them in the same category. I think this book shows a society that is "opposite" ours that is also very similar still.
Buatty gets the worst out of books with quotes that explain how books are bad and corrupt which makes Montag think even more about how reading books may be wrong.
Ben-One of the women said that the reason she had children was to continue the population. Also I think these people have the same reason to live we do they want to experience pleasure and enjoy life...
Kinsey- Maybe it's just human nature to keep a legacy going, they think its their duty to keep having kids.
Katie-thats what I thought. Fire could be considered alive to some people, but my biology class decided the same thing. Its not truly alive.
Paul- I don't think they need a tragic flaw but to create a good plot in a story you would want the characters to have tragic flaws
Lauren- Why would he be commiting suicide?
Kinsey: It could be. For example, firemen burning instead of putting out fires is opposite from our reality. Books being evil, instead of good, are also opposites.
Nick- I am a bit confused about our tragic flaw conversation. I thought you said that he was NOT a tragic hero because he did NOT have a tragic flaw, and I was simply saying that I think he does have a tragic flaw. Maybe I misunderstood you to start with. Do you think he does, or does not have a tragic flaw?
Paul- not every character has to have a tragic flaw. But, if you think about it, doesn't everybody have a tragic flaw. It could Corruption, Anger, Curiosity, Power, or Money, just to name a few.
Bridget and Nick: If Guy does have a tragic flaw, what is it?
Ben- Why do you think that they feel it necessary to have kids? Do you think that it is the same toady?
Someone brought up that opposites are a big theme in this book, which they are. I think that balance is also a big theme. Maybe the book is trying to show the importance of keeping a balance between opposites.
Lsadler: Beatty did not commit suicide and clarrise is dead. There isn't a conspiracy theory in this book. Why does everybody think their is a conspiracy going on in the book?
Lauren- No, I don't think that he commited suicide, at least not on purpose. I think that he had the feeling that he wanted to, but he didn't really do it on purpose.
Kaeli- Yes, I did that activity to, and its a real gray area. Because, plants are alive but they can't just get up and walk away. Yet, fire is the same way.
Paul: Everyone might not have a tragic flaw, but I think everyone has a normal flaw. It doesn't have to be tragic.
Brigit- I don't think Montag does have a tragic flaw, and therefore, is not a tragic hero.
Justin- I think it is that he is not careful enough. He is too excited and curious. His intentions are good, and he could have succeeded except that he got excited and yelled at the women and acted weird to Beatty and told Mildred about the books. If he had not jumped to act so quickly at those moments, would he have been discovered?
Kinsey: That is the greater question. Why do you think he stayed in front of it?
Justin- I don't think that Montag has a tragic flaw.
Justin- Why do you think the government or whoever has banned the books? Do you think that they tell people that books are sad and depressing so that they become "bad" in peoples minds?
Inner Circle- Are you kidding me? Not all black people are voting for Obama.
Brady: I see no conspiracy theory but its obvious that there was something odd with Beatty standing in front of a fire hose, right?
AnnaSophia- I think that you definitely do need a character to have a flaw to make a story. It may not need to be tragic, but they do need a flaw, in every story, that's what helps make the plotline. Who wants to read a book about a perfect little girl that does everything right? That's why people like celebrites that are "rebels" they are interesting.
Annasophia-Yes. This is why sad people who are to lazy to think are likely to be drawn to Palin shes good lucking....
I think being good looking is different then being energetic, exciting and eloquent ect. which is why I think Miss Smith's argument about Nixon is invalid because while you cant tell anything about anyone based on their looks because they are goodlooking you can based on their speaking ability. Also think about the look of Obama's skin and how this may effect him....
Ben-yes, but plants also reproduce and have offspring, they have a part in genetics, but fire doesnt do that. Fire produces because it eats things and gets bigger, you cant look at the genetics of fire and see where it came from
Nick- Okay, now I get it. That is what I thought. I also don't think he is a tragic hero. But not for the same reason. I think he is not because he is not a hero. Yes, he has good thoughts. But is he really a hero at all? Has he tried to help the people, or simply teach himself? He yells at the women, but never tries to help them understand.
Lauren- I think that he did it to make a point. Why do you think he did it?
Kinsey- I don't know for sure, but some people do believe that its their duty to have children. Others hate kids and steer fully away from them.
Nick: I think that he does, but it doesn't make him a tragic hero, because it doesn't cause a downfall. He is careless, like Bridget said, and maybe too curious.
bridget- i agree. In this book the government or sombody is taking away opposites. They only want things that go well together. there is no variaty. This place is very one sided.
Ben - I totaly agree. That's ridiculous. If people vote for Obama it should be for way more reasons than his race.
Yes, but without food or the sun plants would die to.
To answer the inner circle's question- I think that Mrs. Phelps was crying because she was scared of Montag and maybe she was feeling connected with the poem somehow.
Kinsey: I think at first the way that they could ban books at first was but by telling them they are bad, but now I think books have been banned for so long that no one has any doubt that they are bad.
In Fahrenheit's society, the political election are based on the looks of the president not on what he is giing to provid efor their country.They cannot think for themselves for who the best candidate is.
Kelsey- That's true too. They have taken the opposites out of the story, they have taken out th interesting parts of life, so they think that they are happy, but then they are also suicidal and all.
Kinsey: I think so. People of higher authority tells them that it's bad, so they believe it. it's like the Denham's Dentrifice commercial. They don't need it, but because they said he does, he wants to buy it.
Kinsey: He wanted to see how far Montag would go. What else would he have to live for, he quotes books that he doesnt even understand, doesnt feel true love. If had the oppurtunity to escape it why woulnt he take that chance.
IC-The black turnout is not all about Obama being black... I think it also has to do what Bush and the Republican party in general has -or has not done- for many African Americans, particuarly those who live in poverty as many, though by no means all, do...
Nick- Why would she be scared of Montag? What did he do that's scary?
Ben-yes, but plants produce the food for themselves, fire has to eat up other things to get food, while plants make up food inside themselves
Ben- I agree. Although I don't think it's so much as that they hate kids, although that is the reason for some, I think its more that kids don't fit their lifestyle. Like a woman who travels and is gone from home 3 weeks out of a month is probably not going to have kids if her schedule stays like that.
Brian - But don't people like Montag and that old lady a while back who have actually looked at books realize that they aren't bad?
Caroline: characters in books are human thus they will always have flaws. Even characters are not human their personalities are based off humans because the book id wriiten by humans so all characters are going to have a flaw. So i guess everybody is a tragic hero because everybody has flaws. Or at least that is what people say tragic hero is.
People keep saying that Mildred subconsciously tried to commit suiside. I don't know about you guys but that seems impossible
Kinsey- That is true. I didnt nessicarly mean they "hate kids" it was just part of the point i was trying to prove.
Carline- I think she was scared because Montag lashed out so suddenly. And perhaps like I said before, the poem he read somehow touched her in a way that she hadn't been touch that way in a long time.
Justin- I agree. I also think that its like this today. If a little kid see's a commercial for a toy, they instantly want it. Do you think we are more or less brainwashed than the people in 451? I think less, but we are still brainwashed.
Doesnt history tend to repeat its self? This has connections to the KKK, the nazi's LOF and macbeth. what does anyone else have any other connections to the text?
Brady- Having a tragic flaw is only one of the requirements making a character a tragic hero. I was just saying about all characters having flaws
Katie: They realize they are bad, but wasn't Mildred very afraid of books even though she has never read them. I think they are so fixed on what the higher authority says that they cannot believe anything else. Also none of them have read them so I think they do not really know anything about them.
lsadler: i did't fing anything odd. Would you have been able to get out of the flame thrower in a split second? I don't think you would have.
Kaeli- But in order to make the food the plants need te sun.
Nick or had she ever been touched like that. I think they feel things and mistake it for evil.
Did mildred turn in him? Or did Beatty just know?
Lauren- I don't think he really understands what he is missing, so staying is no big deal.
Trey-I think that is completely possible. Some people just have issues, and whether or not they realize it, they want their life to be over, and they begin to do things without even realizing that could kill them
Nick- I see what you mean why she would be scared of him because he lashed out, but what in the poem touched her? Why did it make her so emotional she started crying?
Katie and Ben- I think that it is horribly that people would vote for Oboma because of his race or Hilary Clinton because she is a woman. But they also vote for people because of things like, "they have good sounding speaches" I talk to people who like them not because of the content of their speeches, but the way they sound. The thing is, just because someone is a good speaker doesn't mean they have good ideals, and it goes the other way. Also, people have to remember that they don't write their own speaches.I think that a lot of voters today simply dont educate themselves enough about the candidates.
Kinsey: I don't think people in our time would be brainwashed, but I would say that if they see something they want, they automatically think that they need it.
Brady: Why would you egg someone on when theyre holding a flame thrower? That doesnt make any sense unless you have a death wish.
caroline- exactly. Everything seems good so why wouldn't you be happy right? but then againwhy would you?
Ben: She didn't say all black voters, she said almost all SOUTHERN black voters.
Jacob Thats a really good point. What about the French Revolution. Way to rule by fear. Hey guys by the way if we don't like you we'll cut your head off and put it on a plate.
Jacob- How would Beatty just know? Is he pyschic or something? He said himself that Mildred and one of her friends called her in.
Inner Circle- Do any of you think that because they are educated characters, that they are the only ones to feel emotion.
Kinsey: That is exactly my point.
Trey- I agree with your reasoning on subconsiously commiting suicide. Ive heard stories of people not being able to kill themselves because their mind wont let them
Caroline-Montag has done alot thats scary. He is challenging the system, a system which she has lived in her whole life and she cannot comprehend or understand why, so she is fearful. This is the equivalant to someone deciding to start like a drug company in their house in our world because they think drugs should be legalized...
Trey- Is it really impossibly to subcontiosly try to commit suicide? Maybe she was sleepwalking and did it. The subcontious is a powerful thing I think, especially when you live in a world like that, your subcontious is probably much "larger" for a lack of better words. They have much more emotion and thought that they don't know about. And that can be a strong thing.
Justin- I agree, but to some extent we are brainwashed. Like we were talking about in history about how we stand to say the pledge of allegiance because everyone else does and its just part of the routine. Do you ever really think about what your saying when you do say it? I know I don't. I think its just another routine that we all have.
Kelsey- Exactly, it comes back to that they don't what happy is because they haven't felt sad so they don't have anything to compare it to.
Trey: When people experience something new, like this emotion that the women felt, they mistake it for something evil. Not everyone mistakes this, however; some may think that it is good to experience new things.
Lsadler: he wasn't egging him on he just stuck to his point of view and he was just stating his ideas. Plus he was challengin Montag to see if he had the guts to do it. Some people are like that. I'm sure he didn't wish to die. He just did not fear death.
Sami- Yes, but she said at as if the only reason 90% of the southern blacks are voting just because of Obama.
Briget-I think people who are subconciously trying to commit suicide are not actually subconciously doing it. I think they are simply trying to supress their feelings and emptiness. THey are pretending its not their ignoring it but they know they are misreable which is why they are trying to kill themselves.
Jordan- how intellectual you are has nothing to do with your emotion. Children cry and laugh and they have not been educated yet.
Thats a good point Bridget. I suppose you are right. But what about if you subconsciously committed a murder or subconsciously created the KKK? That could be used by people
Bridget - Yeah you are right. It's kind of like Hitler. His speeches were so freakin powerful just because of the way he talked. Even though now that we look back he had horrible ideas. The people didn't pay as much attention to those ideas as how great of a speaker he was. You can watch them on youtube. He's crazy.
Kinsey: When I first learned it, I really thought about what it meant. Even though I don't anymore, it doesn't mean that I'm brainwashed. Routines don't always mean brainwashed.
Caroline- Beatty seems as if he has a higher knowledge over the rest of the people. I think that he figured it out that Montag had a book under his pillow and that just her friends calling it in was a cover up.
Caroline- I'm not sure what touched her. Maybe she had read something a long time ago like that when something emotional happened to her.
katie- Exactly. Maybe that is how this whole society began. People listened to corrupt leaders and people because of their corisma. And look where it got them?
Caroline- exactly. You can't really know anything until you know something else.
IC- I think you are all reading to much into the book. The government does not teach people how to feel... It just limits anything that would make them feel...
Everyone---- What separates the intellectual people from the normal people in this society?
Exactly Justin. Like the people who shot each other or drive super fast in the bettle cars. Or even the teens who tried to avoid Montag at the last minute. These people know that new is fun and cool.
Ben- Black southern voters are not in the book (or atleast have nothing to do with the dicsussion) Stay on topic. Think about the book.
Brady: How can you not fear death? Isnt it almost human nature to fear dying? I do understand your point, which is very understandable.
Justin- I'm not saying that routines are being brainwashed. I'm just saying that routines are a step towards being brainwashed. If a routine gets so ingrained then if will become brainwashing. That's why its a really good thing to break routines every once in a while.
Bridget and Trey- I already posted this once. Your subconscious tries to protect you. That's why stories are out there that people coulnt pull the trigger on themselves because their mind wouldnt let them.
Bridget: I think so too. I think it was more subconscious instead. Isn't suicide mostly caused by emotion? However, Mildred didn't have that much emotion, so it was caused by another thing.
Bridget or anyone- Why do our conversations always end up relating to Hitler and communisum and politics and all that stuff?
Jacob- You make a good point, but from the way that the friends reacted that one of them had definitely called him in and maybe given him a hint about it, but I don't think that Beatty is like an all-seeing powerful man
Brooke- I am but I didnt understand why you were saying the point you guys did. You guys are the ones who brought it up in the first place.
Change has a huge effect on society. I think fear of change and different ways of doing things is the root of all racism and homophobia and as people become more exposed they become slowly less fearful which is why problems like racism and homophobia are SLOWLY going away...
Katie- Because history repeats itself. There are so many connections to these futuristic books to the past. It is like the past, re-written.
Everyone- I was thinking. I think a lot of the things in this book are still very relevent ideas about the future. At one point Montag asks one of Mildred's friends how many abortions she has had. Which means, in that society abortion is common. Is that not the direction our country is headed?
Trey- I dunno about your history teacher last year but ours was all about seeing patterns in history. In this book I can see so many things that have ran along the same plot if you will, and can relate to this book. so our count is french revolution, macbeth, LOF, KKK, the nazis, anyone else?
Katie- We end up talking about Hitler and communism because they relate to the things that we read. The authors are trying to tell us something about our world and are trying to show us how close they are
Kinsey: I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think that brainwashing is the forceful changing of the mind. In a routine, you're mind changes, but it is mostly caused by what you think and what you place on yourself.
I hate to ask a dumb question but what is brainwashed? Is that just like people following blindly? Seriously though Inner Circle what is brainwashed? So many people say that. I think they use it to frequently.
Lsadler: There are much worse things then dying. Dying is just a stage in life. There is no reson to fear it when you know it will happen eventually, so why fear when there is know way to avoid it.
Paul- Do you think that homophobia and rasicm will ever completely be gone?
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